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The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

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Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#11
post #7

I've been doing some heavy investigation to how (and where) I should start my career in terms of maximizing learning. I have friends who will be working at Microsoft, and other friends who criticize said 'Microsoft' friends, saying that they won't learn much. Others say you learn the [most] at big companies, and a small minority say that start-ups are the way to go when you're early in your career. I wonder what advi…

The advice that I got was to join mid size startup (Think of google 2004, FB 2007, or uber/ airbnb/ dropbox right now). The company has been mostly de-risked, and there is still newer parts of the organization where you get to do interesting things.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#12
> And for much of my 20s, I worked long hours anyway—but others benefited financially from whatever I did, not me.

This is not true, unless Livingston was not paid. An accurate statement would have been "I worked long hours anyway—but others benefited more financially from whatever I did."

But guess what? This is true when you're an employee at a startup too. Founders, executives and investors will almost always have significantly more to gain than you, and their relationships with the company are going to be structured more favorably than yours is. So going to work at a startup is hardly a panacea for folks who can't live with the fact that somebody else is profiting from their labor.

> And remember, working isn’t just about making money. It’s also a form of education. And at a startup, you learn a lot faster about how companies work and how to make a great product than at a big company.

This isn't necessarily true. Lots of startups are chaotic and highly dysfunctional. And many don't produce great products. Depending on the type of startup you go to work for, you may exit the experience with a whole lot less in the way of transferable skills than you expect.

> ...having to explain to crackpots why their mutual fund account went down that day.

Tangent: I'm really surprised at what's coming out in some of the recent writings of people associated with YC. It's unfortunate that some folks who have money in mutual funds don't understand how they work, but the use of the word "crackpot" here is as unjustifiably contemptuous as claiming that "most people are very lazy"[1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8858942

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#13
post #7

I've been doing some heavy investigation to how (and where) I should start my career in terms of maximizing learning. I have friends who will be working at Microsoft, and other friends who criticize said 'Microsoft' friends, saying that they won't learn much. Others say you learn the [most] at big companies, and a small minority say that start-ups are the way to go when you're early in your career. I wonder what advi…

I joined a startup as the first employee shortly out of college and I've been here for almost two years. I would say I've probably learned more here than I would've elsewhere because I jump up and down so much of our stack. I've gone deep on a few technologies (Akka, ElasticSearch, CoreOS/Docker) while gaining breadth in a number of others (Neo4j, Rails, AWS).

I don't think I would've gained the responsibilities I have here as quickly as at larger companies.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#14
post #9

The risk of a startup has moved from investors to founders and now from founders to employees. Investors diversify their investments to minimize the risk. They don't really care if a particular startup they invested in will fail. They have tons of other investments... Now with this new generation of "entrepreneurs" who start five startup at a time, they are not too afraid of startup failure either. They did diversify…

Startup employees have a lot of advantages to mitigate this risk though:

- They can be much more selective of only joining startups that already has good traction

- They generally can command a higher salary than founders pay themselves

- If things go south they can jump ship much sooner

There are certainly disadvantages, but it is a free market. If you choose to go the startup employee route, then use all the advantages you've got available to you. Depending on a your goals being a startup employee might not be the right thing, but they can mitigate their risk just like everybody else.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#15
post #6

This site is so busy it almost reminds me of a tabloid: - three signup buttons (top-right and top-left, and the bottom of the article) - permanent left overlay - permanent double overlay on the top, including 9 'share' links - red banner at the top for the latest campaign - popular linkbait articles with pictures along the left side - self-advertisement in the middle of the article - giant modal signup popup after ab…

I completely agree! One of the worst reading experiences I've ever encountered.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#16
post #7

I've been doing some heavy investigation to how (and where) I should start my career in terms of maximizing learning. I have friends who will be working at Microsoft, and other friends who criticize said 'Microsoft' friends, saying that they won't learn much. Others say you learn the [most] at big companies, and a small minority say that start-ups are the way to go when you're early in your career. I wonder what advi…

> I have friends who will be working at Microsoft, and other friends who criticize said 'Microsoft' friends, saying that they won't learn much.

There are many things to criticize about the dev experience at Microsoft, but that's definitely not one of them. Unless you're in a quite dysfunctional group, there is extensive early-career training and explicit mid- to late- career mentoring there that really distinguishes it from startups and other big companies. As a manager there, I was held responsible for growing my organization's devs much more explicitly and to a much further "minimum ceiling" career stage than I've seen or heard of from any peers at other companies or other places I've worked.

Of course, things may have changed since I left that position in ~2006.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#17
'Yes, startups are very risky, and they often fail. But when they don’t fail, their stock can become quite valuable. I wish I’d taken a job as an early employee at a startup and gotten some equity when I graduated from college'

The author means she wishes she'd joined a -successful- startup. That, or she wishes she'd had better challenges out of college, ones that she still could have completed, though (rather than just taken a job at a startup yet failed to be productive at it). The problem is that the former is impossible to pick, and the latter isn't guaranteed just because you joined a startup.

You should be picking a job at a startup with the assumption that the startup will fail. Is this particular startup opportunity you're looking at (not 'it's a startup!', but, 'it's a chance to work at X, using technologies Y, with team members of Z, management seems good, the environment seems good, the compensation is good enough') worth it, given that?

And if you take it, periodically ask, given this startup will fail (take that attitude, even if things are beginning to look positive), is the environment still worth it?

The fact it's a startup, the fact it includes equity, are -terrible- reasons to stay at a job that you aren't growing in and learning to enjoy.

I've experienced good enterprise jobs, where I felt I had a massive say in what technologies were used, in what tasks we prioritized, and felt extremely responsible to get things done, to where I felt I was constantly learning, and better yet, felt incentivized to go learn more on my own. I felt that my efforts were recognized, that my management gave a damn, and that collectively my department was effective, and supportive, and that my time was respected.

I've experienced bad startup jobs, where I felt micromanaged, that I had no say, that my tasks were constantly shifting and never under my own control, and that the existing cruft from prior pivots was so large that I had no real freedom to experiment or expand into the areas other people, who were more knowledgeable about the code, were working in, and by the time I left I felt I had learned nothing, and felt so drained at the end of the day I had no inclination to do anything on getting home. I felt unrecognized, viewed largely as a useful code monkey, that my time was not respected, and that collectively everyone was just in it for the paycheck and the hope of an eventual payout of their equity.

Take articles like this as reasons to consider a startup, but NOT as "startups are better". Just because something is a startup is not a reason to take it, just as it's not a reason to dismiss it. Whatever opportunities you face are specific to you, and they should be evaluated by you based on their actual merits.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#18
There are millions of people in the US alone that would jump at the chance of taking a good startup job or creating a startup themselves. They don't need convincing. But startups don't want to hire them and investors don't want to fund them. Because they're poor, under-educated, and different. They also make up the majority of the smart and talented people.

It would require actual effort and understanding to work with those kinds of people. A lot more work upfront. Some of them haven't even read Homer, the plebs.

Instead, wealthy investors ignore those millions and spend their time trying to convince a handful of wealthy entitled children to temporarily forgo the easy life at Google or Accenture.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#19
post #9

The risk of a startup has moved from investors to founders and now from founders to employees. Investors diversify their investments to minimize the risk. They don't really care if a particular startup they invested in will fail. They have tons of other investments... Now with this new generation of "entrepreneurs" who start five startup at a time, they are not too afraid of startup failure either. They did diversify…

My first "startup" was a Rocket Internet company where I knew I'd have little career future, that my pay would be way below market, and that I'd get no equity (I was fortunate that the person who recruited me was upfront about it). Three years and two more RI ventures later, I've observed enough and figured out what to learn, learnt it and even found both my market and co-founders. This happened because of the breadth of work that needs to get done in a startup/"small underfunded mostly online company" and the lack of people available to do it, meaning little bureaucracy and much more responsibility, with immediate feedback from the real world on your performance.

Career switches are hard and sometimes, starting at the bottom again, risk included, can be worthwhile. I do agree with you that few people hired as "employees" should expect to "get rich". But provided you are willing to observe and learn, especially learn what to learn, it can still be worth it, even just to see what a hyped up "5-at-a-time" startup looks like from the inside and the signs of what to avoid.

Re: The Career Path I Didn’t Consider, But Should Have

#20
The only reason I can think of to join a start-up as an early employee is that you want to some day do a start-up of your own and you want to acquire the relevant experience.

From a financial perspective it is a lottery ticket with a very high price and a low chance of paying out.

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