How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire • Hacker News Board

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#321

Post by UrMomReadsHN » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 8:17 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #272

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't "a study," It is an article summarizing a lot of the data on subconscious bias as it relates to race, specifically white/black in the US. If you read it you'd know that. Huh? I never guessed that anything happened or guessing at any motives of anyone...? The same resume experiment has been tested with male/female names as well.

You wrote "There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias." Is that not guessing at motives (or the lack of a motive, I suppose)? The point the above commenter made is that the CV example does not demonstrate subconscious bias. The researcher in question said they were "probably unaware", and said that "if you ask someone on the hiring committee", implying that they did not even try to m…

Your missing the forest for the trees. Don't get hung up on one example I quoted because I found it interesting.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#322

Post by JohnBooty » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:16 PM UTC

yaddayadda wrote: post #317

JohnBooty wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also realize that no two people or situations are alike, and that I have no idea what you're going through! But from a fellow introvert who has had success with interviews: an interview is a good example of a social situation that's fairly "hackable." By hackable I mean an interview is something where, at least compared to an open-ended conversation with a stranger, there are certain... branching paths of conversat…

Thank you for the advice and good luck! In all of the interviews I've been to recently, the interviewers continue to press me if I focus on their company and don't say something about why I want to leave my current employer. After a particularly bad interview, I did start practicing for these types of questions and I'm getting better , but that's still relative. Part of the problem is that I've been in the toxic work…

Haha. I've done very little interviewing/hiring, but if I was the interviewer I'd probably laugh along with you at that point - especially if I had just pressed you for more details about why you're leaving the current job.

Maybe it's how you're saying it, and not what you're saying? Is there somebody you could practice with? Somebody who could point out body language or tone of voice or other cues that could be giving interviewers the wrong impression about you?

One other possibility...

Maybe round out that story by mentioning how you (or the team you were a part of, even if you weren't the lead person on the effort) tried to solve that problem in a constructive way. "We gave our boss a presentation on three popular, low-cost issue trackers that we tried and liked... to no avail." Surely your next employer will make some decisions you don't agree with - they're wondering how you will handle them!

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#323

Post by JohnBooty » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:28 PM UTC

sekasi wrote: post #28

I've done a LOT of interviewing, recruiting and ultimately a lot of saying "no" to people. Over the years I've landed on a series of personal rules on how to do just that. 1. Always explain rationale around the No, to help them improve 2. Always let people down gently reinforcing positive notions as well, you never know what state of mind they are in. 3. Always respond to requests for more information This takes me a…

Thank you for this! I can't help but think that this benefits your company and your company's image in the long run as well.

I had a very promising half-day interview several years ago with a company I really liked and got nothing at all. Not even a "you're not being hired."

I sent the obligatory thank-you email the day after the interview and sent a polite "just checking in" email a couple weeks later. A few weeks after that I wrote and asked if he had any feedback or suggestions on things I might improve upon if I wanted to work for them in the future.

Now obviously, the hiring lead's obligation is to his employer and not some guy looking for a job. Not his job to be my career mentor.

But I'm an experienced developer, and I'm certain that I did well in all parts of the interview except one. With some additional experience in that area there's a very good chance I could have been a good contributor to their team - in a market that has a shortage of experienced developers.

So, on my most recent job search, I didn't even think about re-applying to that company. In a region where companies pay tens of thousands of dollars to tech recruiters for anything even remotely resembling experienced developers, maybe it's worth spending (literally) a few minutes maintaining at least a cursory relationship with those you didn't hire - but might like to someday.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#324

Post by JohnBooty » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #68

sekasi wrote: post #28

I've done a LOT of interviewing, recruiting and ultimately a lot of saying "no" to people. Over the years I've landed on a series of personal rules on how to do just that. 1. Always explain rationale around the No, to help them improve 2. Always let people down gently reinforcing positive notions as well, you never know what state of mind they are in. 3. Always respond to requests for more information This takes me a…

Then there is the perspective from having heard "no": 1. Never believe anyone's rationale regarding their "no". They acted on instinct, and made up a clever story to afterward to convince themselves it was a rational decision. Or worse: it was some prejudice that they are consciously covering up. Or perhaps some internal reasons that they don't want to discuss with outsiders like sudden news that affects all hiring a…

1. Yeah and no. Sometimes it's a gut thing, or even prejudice. Other times there are very specific reasons - especially when we're talking about tech interviews.

Interviews are also in a pretty unique position to be quite honest with you. They have no real incentive to lie or even to be nice to you. Which isn't to say they always will be honest, but your odds are higher than they would be if you were asking say... your current boss about why you were passed over for a promotion.

2. Heck yeah to that.

3. There's nothing wrong with politely asking (not "pressing") for more information. If one interviewer out of ten gives you the information or feedback you asked for, that's a pretty good time investment - how long does it take you to write ten short, polite emails?

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#325

Post by JohnBooty » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #242

UrMomReadsHN wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a TON of data out there demonstrating we all have subconscious bias. Moreso than we believe. Even of our own groups! We are slaves to our brain! This is a good summary of some of the data: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b... Professors at the University of Chicago and MIT sent 5,000 fictitious resumes in response to 1,300 help wanted ads. Each resume listed identical qualification…

I'm not from the US, but don't many American blacks have white-sounding names? And I assume those blacks are more likely to come from families that are wealthier and better educated. If yes, the other explanation could be that the employers were considering the name an indication of background, i.e. a "Jamal" is more likely to come "from the hood" (poor neighborhood) than a "James". The point is, "discrimination" is…

  > The point is, "discrimination" is sometimes just 
  > applying statistics. Just because some statistical
  > factors correlate with race doesn't mean one is being
  > racist; they are just optimizing their selection process.

It's still not very good thinking, ethically or pragmatically.

Even if you could 100% accurately determine a candidate's background from looking at their resume, and even if you could be sure that people from their background were more likely to be "bad" people[1] then couldn't you also look at "Jamal's" resume and conclude: "Obviously, Jamal must be a talented guy to rise above his background and pursue a technical career?"

In the end, it's all guesswork anyway. Companies would be much better served by sticking to the facts on "Jamal's" resume and checking themselves whenever they catch themselves inventing fictional histories for people based on a candidate's name and their own racist prejudices and stereotypes. _____ [1] To be clear: I don't agree that either of these things are true.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#326

Post by yaddayadda » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 11:52 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #322

yaddayadda wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the advice and good luck! In all of the interviews I've been to recently, the interviewers continue to press me if I focus on their company and don't say something about why I want to leave my current employer. After a particularly bad interview, I did start practicing for these types of questions and I'm getting better , but that's still relative. Part of the problem is that I've been in the toxic work…

Haha. I've done very little interviewing/hiring, but if I was the interviewer I'd probably laugh along with you at that point - especially if I had just pressed you for more details about why you're leaving the current job. Maybe it's how you're saying it, and not what you're saying? Is there somebody you could practice with? Somebody who could point out body language or tone of voice or other cues that could be givi…

I certainly think part of my problem is the how I'm saying it. Unfortunately I don't have any friends who would give me constructive criticism (they'd give me plenty of criticism in jest, just none of the constructive variety). I wish I had somebody who could do this for me!

I have to admit, I never considered trying to recover after I get the "look" from interviewers. In fact, I had provided multiple recommendations on bug-tracking software, to include setting up demo servers for several different packages (because of those demos and related discussions, our interns started using both bug-tracking software and GitHub for their projects - so that was a definite win).

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#327

Post by wolfgke » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 12:21 AM UTC

Thrymr wrote: post #217

WalterBright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing a civil case is not proof beyond reasonable doubt, but a 51% preponderance of evidence. A company can lose a case, and still not be guilty - why apologize for something you're not guilty of?

Why not apologize for something you know you are guilty of? That's the real problem, that rarely happens (especially in the case of a corporation).

At least in German the word "to apologize" ("sich entschuldigen"; although this translation, though often used, is considered to be impolite; if you are interested in the details read http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/zwiebelfisch-entsc...) has "Schuld" ("guilt") in it. This implicitely states the belief that there exists a concept as guilt, which I don't, since I don't believe in free will.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#328

Post by AnonJ » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 4:25 AM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #286

waylandsmithers wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be pretty cool-- and although software development is meritocratic, it's not as meritocratic as those orchestras, right?. They simply want the best musicians PERIOD, whereas lots of software companies would probably hesitate to hire someone with a lot of talent but a toxic attitude.

> and although software development is meritocratic, it's not as meritocratic as those orchestras Software development IS NOT meritocratic and neither are orchestras. There is just as much politics, networking, and problems with "value" in orchestras as in software development.

This sounds a bit cynical and negative to me. Probably if your company is too big then these are quite inevitable. But at least at where I work now I feel free. There's enough transparency, candidness and equality among all. Don't know whether things will change in the future, but a relatively "clean" state is certainly possible, at least according to my current feelings.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#329

Post by fsk » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 3:44 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #43

I sometimes consult to clients on improving their hiring process. Candidate experience is now a topic that at least some companies consider. This isn't your typical candidate experience - applying for a vague job ad, being asked to answer 6 puzzle questions, invite to an open house, two days of free training and then left alone for three weeks, followed by a vote by the tribe to see who will get the job. It's definit…

As someone who's already employed, if someone asks me to spend more than 30 minutes doing an assignment or test before an interview, I'm just going to pass.

My experience has been, 95%+ of the time when I do the test or assignment, I don't even get an interview (much less an offer). It's even more ridiculous because I really know my stuff; at my current job, I do all the tasks where someone else gets stuck.

Suppose you hire 1% of the people you interview, and you expect them to spend 10 hours before the offer. You're wasting 1000 hours collectively (half a year of work) of your candidates' time.

Re: How my life was changed when I began caring about the people I did not hire

#330

Post by JohnBooty » Sun, Jan 11, 2015, 3:36 AM UTC

yaddayadda wrote: post #326

JohnBooty wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha. I've done very little interviewing/hiring, but if I was the interviewer I'd probably laugh along with you at that point - especially if I had just pressed you for more details about why you're leaving the current job. Maybe it's how you're saying it, and not what you're saying? Is there somebody you could practice with? Somebody who could point out body language or tone of voice or other cues that could be givi…

I certainly think part of my problem is the how I'm saying it. Unfortunately I don't have any friends who would give me constructive criticism (they'd give me plenty of criticism in jest, just none of the constructive variety). I wish I had somebody who could do this for me! I have to admit, I never considered trying to recover after I get the "look" from interviewers. In fact, I had provided multiple recommendations…

  > I certainly think part of my problem is the how I'm saying it.

First of all there's a chance you might not be coming across as awkwardly as you think you are. You know how it is when you're nervous - our perceptions (and our perceptions of how others see us) can get skewed.

If you truly are coming off awkwardly, what's the real problem there? The problem is this: the interviewer is wondering, "How is this guy going to interface with the rest of the team here if he's this awkward? Does he even know he's awkward?"

So... you can address both of those unspoken questions head-on. Mention that you tend to get nervous in interviews and when meeting people for the first time and that it's something you overcome fairly quickly and that you tend to develop really good working relationships with coworkers. (Because that's certainly true from what you've said)

  > I wish I had somebody who could do this for me!

If you live near Philadelphia I'll do it for a beer haha. Is there anybody non-technical that might help you? Siblings, parents...?

  > In fact, I had provided multiple recommendations on bug-tracking software, 
  > to include setting up demo servers for several different packages (because of 
  > those demos and related discussions, our interns started using both bug-tracking 
  > software and GitHub for their projects - so that was a definite win).

If I was interviewing you I'd find this impressive. You offered a constructive solution and, even more importantly, your solution got traction. Kudos!