Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies • Hacker News Board

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#21

Post by gst » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 9:35 PM UTC

newaccountfool wrote: post #16

elektronaut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debit cards are the norm here in Norway. I pay 275 NOK/year for mine, with zero transaction fees on everyday usage.

You have to pay for a Debit Card? What's the reason for this?

You pay for debit and credit cards in most European countries. One reason is probably that the fees paid by the merchants for card processing are much lower than in the US. So while a bank in the US is happy to give you a free credit card in the US, because it knows that it gets the money back via the fees paid from the merchants, a bank in Europe won't be able to break even with that approach.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#22

Post by silb » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 9:40 PM UTC

roncohen wrote: post #8

I believe the trend in the nordics is largely driven by the Dankort and similar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort ) which is a debit card that is free to get and use for consumers. Merchants pay an annual fee depending on their transaction volume and they are not allowed to pass the cost on to the consumer. It doubles as a VISA which is neat when we go abroad. An interesting data point is that every single taxis…

In Norway, the equivalent debit card payment system is called BankAxept.

An important factor in the adoption of these cards is the low transaction costs for both the consumer and the merchant.

Unlike credit cards, merchants arent't charged a percentage of the total transaction amount.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#23

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #11

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #7

Going cashless smacks of dystopianism. We seem to presume that anyone "off the books" is up to no good. Some are up to no good, but many are simply trying to survive. Perhaps I'd think differently if we had no unemployment.

I wonder if now the governments there consider people using cash "suspicious", just like the US gov considers not having a Facebook account suspicious, or how the Spanish Court in a recent case considered encrypting your e-mail end to end as "suspicious".

Why do you believe "the US gov" (and which branch and agency, specifically) considers not having a Facebook account suspicious?

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#24

Post by Swizec » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

newaccountfool wrote: post #17

Swizec wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We seem to presume that anyone "off the books" is up to no good. Off the books is no good by default. We have a phrase for it: tax evasion.

Not necesarily, you can be paid in cash by your employer and this is compltely legal.

Where I am from (Slovenia) it is completely illegal. In fact it is illegal for businesses to have cash expenses higher than a hundred euro or so. Very low by European standards, but all countries in EU have some sort of cash payment limit.

This is specifically to curb shadow economies and the grey market.

And the reason it's illegal to pay employees in cash is that the government needs a way of tracking "automatic" social security and tax payments. Where automatic means the employer pays them as the part of the paycheck that doesn't go to the employee.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#25

Post by silb » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #11

ArkyBeagle wrote: post #7

Going cashless smacks of dystopianism. We seem to presume that anyone "off the books" is up to no good. Some are up to no good, but many are simply trying to survive. Perhaps I'd think differently if we had no unemployment.

I wonder if now the governments there consider people using cash "suspicious", just like the US gov considers not having a Facebook account suspicious, or how the Spanish Court in a recent case considered encrypting your e-mail end to end as "suspicious".

This is true in Norway.

Merchants are required by law to report cash purchases over a certain amount to the tax authorities.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#26

Post by pmalynin » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:02 PM UTC

In Canada we have Interac debit cards and everyone is happy, I don't even remember the last time I used cash to pay for something...

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#27

Post by hga » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:07 PM UTC

sveme wrote: post #13

Maybe it is a mild paranoia attack kicking in, but I find the trend to a cashless society very troublesome. I'm doing all I can to avoid being tracked on the web, using AdBlock and Ghostery, among other things, yet the privacy implications of going cashless I'm rarely considering. Cash is anonymous; cards are perfect trackers. Both your tracks and your most intimate preferences on the web and in real life are perfect…

Agreed. I use cash for everything I can, checks when I can't (local payments), and credit cards only for purchases over the web, where it can't be easily avoided, and one does need, in the US at least, to maintain a credit record. This is primarily to avoid fraud with stolen info, and secondly that mild paranoia we share. If I had a Pocky addiction, no one would know outside my family ^_^.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#28

Post by newaccountfool » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #24

newaccountfool wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necesarily, you can be paid in cash by your employer and this is compltely legal.

Where I am from (Slovenia) it is completely illegal. In fact it is illegal for businesses to have cash expenses higher than a hundred euro or so. Very low by European standards, but all countries in EU have some sort of cash payment limit. This is specifically to curb shadow economies and the grey market. And the reason it's illegal to pay employees in cash is that the government needs a way of tracking "automatic" s…

In the UK it's not illegal. You can pay them in cash in hand. Most builders and workmen that do work in your homes are paid cash in hand when they come round, this is common. They just need to declare it with the correct authorities themself.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#29

Post by engang9955 » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

newaccountfool wrote: post #20

Kiro wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not true. Everyone can get a debit card which deducts from your bank account without any fees and is accepted everywhere.

Comments below state other wise.

Comment above was about _transaction_ fees, i.e. fees you pay on a per-transaction basis.

Comments below are about fixed yearly fees.

There is no contradiction, they are talking about different things.

Re: Nordic countries point the way to cashless societies

#30

Post by DanBC » Sat, Jan 10, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

newaccountfool wrote: post #28

Swizec wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I am from (Slovenia) it is completely illegal. In fact it is illegal for businesses to have cash expenses higher than a hundred euro or so. Very low by European standards, but all countries in EU have some sort of cash payment limit. This is specifically to curb shadow economies and the grey market. And the reason it's illegal to pay employees in cash is that the government needs a way of tracking "automatic" s…

In the UK it's not illegal. You can pay them in cash in hand. Most builders and workmen that do work in your homes are paid cash in hand when they come round, this is common. They just need to declare it with the correct authorities themself.

That's not off the books then.