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Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

propublica.org

41–50 of 75 posts

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#41

> "releasing the documents would hamper the department's ability to conduct operations and endanger the lives of New Yorkers." Then apparently the lives of New Yorkers are protected by security through obscurity, with absolutely no evidence of efficacy and absolutely no auditable evaluation of safety. I'm thinking that a strong education in science should be a requirement for anyone who touches these programs with a…

Don't be silly, there are obviously some secrets the government should be able to keep in the interest of security. The names of whistleblowers, the missile launch codes.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#42

> "releasing the documents would hamper the department's ability to conduct operations and endanger the lives of New Yorkers." Then apparently the lives of New Yorkers are protected by security through obscurity, with absolutely no evidence of efficacy and absolutely no auditable evaluation of safety. I'm thinking that a strong education in science should be a requirement for anyone who touches these programs with a…

What I want to know is if this could be considered willful negligence. In the past (i.e. before ~WW2) knowledge about the harmful effects of some types of radiation was not "common knowledge, even among otherwise educated people.

After the bomb (esp. after the Crossroads Baker and Castle Bravo test that introduced a lot of the world to the term "fallout") and the changes seen in medicine (x=ray, cancer treatments, fears about cancer in general) I would guess that most of the population is at least aware that ionizing radiation can be dangerous, even if they do not understand the specifics.

Radiophobia and the anti-nuclear movements have certainly amplified the fears about anything involving "radiation". The fact that "radiation" means "always very dangerous" to many people is evidence of this attitude.

So I suggest that trying to claim ignorance about the potential dangers of pointing an active x-ray emitter at someone should be handled the same way as we treat claims of being ignorant about guns. For most cases, claiming "I didn't know that guns were dangerous" is going to be dismissed as an obvious lie or gross negligence. Is there any reason a jury should treat "I didn't know that using an x-ray beam was dangerous" as a valid get-out-of-jail explanation?

Note: I understand that low-level operators may not have been told how the machine works (such things would be for a court to decide). Responsibility flows upwards, and if it was a commercial product, some Professional should have had to sign off on the design. In any case, someone had to authorize these scanners... which I call mens rea.

[edit] A valid defense, of course, would be to have the results of some very rigorous safety analysis that showed there was no danger. Preferably by a 3rd party. If this study existed, I suspect it would have already been shown to the public.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fouth amendment concern is particularly valid. This amounts to a search as there is penetration into one's protected property and no probable cause exists just by virtue of being in public. A passive detector, on the other hand would be completely reasonable, such as a radiation detector because the material being detected is being emitted, basically being broadcast, while invasive detectors are actually 'enterin…

> It's funny how the TSA has had virtually zero success in catching terrorists, yet we still allow them to anally probe us in the cause of safety. Yeah, they don't catch terrorists because their presence stops terrorists from trying certain kinds of attacks. That's the whole point. Also I don't know why you think they don't screen the 23 year old arabs more thoroughly -- because by all reports, people that are more "…

Yet toddlers and grandmothers are still getting enhanced screenings.. Behavioral and intelligence-based screening is far more effective than random screening. And enhanced screenings didn't stop the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber. Had they simply ran the underwear bomber's name through, they would have found that his father reported his risk to the U.S. embassy. They have advance notice of every passenger. Why not use that as a means to determine enhanced screening priority? The 9-11 guys were in expired visas-- even a basic check at the airport would have caught that.

The point is that the government is so worried about offending certain people that they instead subject everyone through theoretically similar treatment, thus reducing the odds of actually catching bad guys.

The only time El Al was hijacked was back in 1968, despite being the flag carrier for one of the most threat-filled countries in the world.

They certainly don't employ the Keystone Cops of the TSA and follow some politically correct screening criteria.

You also never hear of El Al screeners stealing iPads from passenger bags or wheelchair bound old ladies getting strip searched.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Passive" scanners violate the 4th amendment just as much as "invasive" ones. Kyllo vs United States determined that thermal imaging without a warrant was a search and constituted a violation of a person's 4th amendment rights. "Off the wall" and "through the wall" surveillance are one and the same.

So would the NYPD be subject to a 4th Amendment challenge? I would think the case you cite would say so.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say it would hinge on how much the NYPD publicly releases about how they're used in investigations. I expect that if they're used in criminal or FISA Court suits, evidence will be obfuscated, classified or omitted.

In Kyllo's case, a person's home has a much better expectation of privacy from invasive surveillance than one's person and property in public. If it becomes public that people's homes are being searched without warrants, then I'd assume that they'd rightly be challenged.

It would be interesting and probably frightening to see how invasive surveillance of a person and property, in what might be considered 'public' space, would be challenged in court.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#45

>> "The X-ray vans—which reportedly cost between $729,000 and $825,000 each—are designed to find organic materials such as drugs and explosives." As much as I don't like this at least explosives are a good reasoning for using them. Drugs? Come on! Exposing citizens to radiation, no matter how little, so you can find people in possession of drugs is ludicrous. Every time you think the war on drugs has reached the heig…

The assumption that the public can be exposed to potentially harmful radiation by people with a badge and no accountable way of verifying any relevant degree of training, study or certification is equally as ludicrous.

There is no justification for violating the privacy of and imposing potential health dangers on the public.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's funny how the TSA has had virtually zero success in catching terrorists, yet we still allow them to anally probe us in the cause of safety. Yeah, they don't catch terrorists because their presence stops terrorists from trying certain kinds of attacks. That's the whole point. Also I don't know why you think they don't screen the 23 year old arabs more thoroughly -- because by all reports, people that are more "…

>Yeah, they don't catch terrorists because their presence stops terrorists from trying certain kinds of attacks. Perhaps you'd be interested in purchasing one of my patented elephant whistles. I haven't heard of a single customer who's been the victim of an elephant attack while carrying one. Keep yourself and your loved ones safe for a very low price!

We have already seen attacks that were stopped because of airline security. One example is Richard Reid, who had to resort to an unusual apparatus in order to get his bomb onto the plane. This resulted in the failure of his attack, which otherwise would have had most likely succeeded.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fouth amendment concern is particularly valid. This amounts to a search as there is penetration into one's protected property and no probable cause exists just by virtue of being in public. A passive detector, on the other hand would be completely reasonable, such as a radiation detector because the material being detected is being emitted, basically being broadcast, while invasive detectors are actually 'enterin…

> go back to the pre 9-11 airport security system A funny thing happened on my way to CES [1] this week. I showed my mobile boarding pass on my phone to the TSA greeter who said, "OK, sir, you can go down this other line on the right." That line was very short, and I wasn't sure if this was a good thing or a bad thing. I got to the head of that line right away and the next TSA agent said, "Welcome. You don't have to…

Your assistant didn't sign you up for Pre, given that membership requires an in-person fingerprint scan. You got Pre because Southwest forwarded your information to the TSA which gave you Pre for that trip.

I have Pre through the Global Entry program. Others get it day-of because they were "randomly" sent to that line at the airport. Some airports have touchscreens which decide which line to send passengers to (passenger taps the screen and is told which way to go).

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's funny how the TSA has had virtually zero success in catching terrorists, yet we still allow them to anally probe us in the cause of safety. Yeah, they don't catch terrorists because their presence stops terrorists from trying certain kinds of attacks. That's the whole point. Also I don't know why you think they don't screen the 23 year old arabs more thoroughly -- because by all reports, people that are more "…

Yet toddlers and grandmothers are still getting enhanced screenings.. Behavioral and intelligence-based screening is far more effective than random screening. And enhanced screenings didn't stop the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber. Had they simply ran the underwear bomber's name through, they would have found that his father reported his risk to the U.S. embassy. They have advance notice of every passenger. Why n…

If you don't have random screening, then people who would pass the other screenings won't have to deal with an element of uncertainty to their plans. This is enough to deter some attacks. People like McVeigh, who would get past behavioral or intelligence-based screenings, would not want to plan an attack that relied on not being selected for a random screening, even if it's a small chance.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#49
post #28

They have a very interesting way of reporting radiation exposure (ditto with airport scanners). Instead of reporting the total body accumulated dose, they report the dose a single scanning beam sweep induces over a small area. These machines use a tight beam (or several) which sweep. Each individual beam when measured in isolation likely deliver 0.1 microSievert of radiation. However the total body dose (accumulated…

The health concerns of radiation exposure of backscatter X-ray have never been properly characterized at all. One specific concern that was raised with airport scanners is that existing methods of estimating safety limit dosage simply don't work with backscatter, which deposits the majority of radiation in the surface layers of the subject (i.e. in the person's skin), which has much lower volume (and therefore higher…

> The health concerns of radiation exposure of backscatter X-ray have never been properly characterized at all.

To amplify: The former head of homeland security profited handsomely from their approval. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12...

I wouldn't want to be in his shoes if there is ever a larger-than-average number of cancers in the TSA agents. Even if it is merely statistical fluctuation, his conflict-of-interest may come back to haunt him in ways he has not anticipated.

Re: Judge Orders NYPD to Release Records on X-ray Vans

#50

They have a very interesting way of reporting radiation exposure (ditto with airport scanners). Instead of reporting the total body accumulated dose, they report the dose a single scanning beam sweep induces over a small area. These machines use a tight beam (or several) which sweep. Each individual beam when measured in isolation likely deliver 0.1 microSievert of radiation. However the total body dose (accumulated…

> Instead of reporting the total body accumulated dose, they report the dose a single scanning beam sweep induces over a small area.

A major problem radiation dosimetry has is definitions are easily confused. The NRC's dose limits for individual members of the public [0] dictate a total effective dose equivalent of 1 mSv a year. The confusing part is keeping all the numbers straight if it is an effective dose, effective dose equivalent, or a dose equivalent. I'll get back to why I bring this up in a second.

I do want to say that I don't see the reference you are getting the 0.1 μSv per 1x1 (cm square?) area from the article (just mentions a per-sweep radiation measurement but doesn't report what kind of dose that is). However, from your sources it actually doesn't surprise me they are reporting the radiation dosage that way, if they are reporting it as an equivalent dose.

An equivalent dose normalizes for radiation type. A gamma or X-ray is weighted much less than alphas (typically 1 vs 20 weighing factors, depending on what standard you follow). But the equivalent dose does NOT take into account what part of a human's body you are irradiating. If I had to choose between a pinky finger and my thyroid, you can probably imagine which one I would pick to be subject to irradiation. Instead, the effective dose accounts for the different parts of the body (and effective dose equivalent for both). This is why I suspect the manufacturer preferred the equivalent dose as opposed to the effective dose - they are normalizing for the type of radiation but not the part of the body they hit. There is the ICRP's notion of an "ideal adult" but each person's natural variation of geometry (height, girth, etc) would skew the manufacturer's number in some way. Of course effective dose is still imperfect as it contains a general biological potency assumption but it would mean a lot more to the public than a count of gamma rays and their energies.

> What is the full body accumulated figure? I'm going to guess as much as .30 μSv per scan.

That would depend on the van's speed, its beam patterns (spatially and temporally), the position of the person, etc. Honestly I can't tell if that is reasonable or not, but (returning to the NRC limits for the general public) keep in mind that the van would have to drive by you 1,000 times in a year to reach .3 mSv of your 1 mSv regulated limit with your guess. Of course, there are people out there that put lead-foil hats on and distrust the regulatory limit.

[0]http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part020/pa...

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