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“Nothing you can do impresses me”

ginnabaker.wordpress.com

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Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#91
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're pr…

Comments include "They're probably lying," "This is like a parent posting their kindergartener's first crayon house-and-trees-and-sun drawings out into blogs," etc. And most of those comments were heavily endorsed by this community Hmm; I remember that thread as much more positive. Let's look back over top level comments and look at ratios? [1] supportive: I did this kind of thing too! [2] dismissive: this sound susp…

The second toplevel comment ("this sounds suspicious") and its replies were mostly what I was referring to. The original author had to show up and defend himself, something that would rightly terrify many newbies. Comments near the top are exponentially more representative, both because of upvotes and because of the number of replies they engender.

Although it's interesting that a toplevel-only view results in a much more positive outlook. I wonder if I could write an extension to hide all replies by default to see what various threads would look like.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#92
post #64

Being in the senior position I have had both attitudes (critical AND supportive), and I can tell you it has to do with how the ideas are presented to me. Sometimes the new developer will come in and talk about how his new thing is better than everything else, and everything written before him was garbage. You can bet he will get a lot of criticism. This is not some ego thing (although I am sure that does have an effe…

This is a totally fair attitude. To be honest, there have been a few times when I've been going on and on about something I've accomplished (not even necessarily in software) and I've been cut down by a more experienced person. After I finish fuming, I usually stop and think, and that's been a good thing. The problem I've run into in software is that I've also been slammed when I've very humbly and timidly introduced…

That's really a shame. I know a lot of my success has been due to the patience and instructions given by my seniors when I started.

Perhaps your success can be in spite of the critics.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#93

This blog reminds me of something I heard in an interview with Dr. Roy Baumeister. He pointed out that when he works with grad students he has to actively criticize and knock down most of the ideas that his male students have because they are full of testosterone and hubris and he has to actively draw out his female students to build their confidence. He told some of his grad students this years ago and they thought…

It's not just women who prefer this communication style, by the way. As a male, I find the constant jockying for position among other men to be tiresome and stressful. It's particularly acute among other coders. To be honest, it's also one of the main reasons I don't maintain many friendships with men.

There are others still who are often excluded in this kind of environment: minorities, LGBTs, and people who are shy by nature.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#94
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed t…

>I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. Why do you think that is? (Sincere question)

Most people ignore the advice they are given, that's just how people are. They have to come to a conclusion under their own power, or else it just won't stick.

There are exceptions that should be studied to understand the phenomenon. One thing I know there are people who will diligently take and address feedback, but only of one particular kind. For example, where I worked at Microsoft code review feedback was sacred - you never complained about it unless it was demonstrably, factually wrong, and you did as you were told. There probably were people who didn't follow these rules, but if so they did not last very long. Another example is master/apprentice relationship, where apprentice relegates his creative autonomy to the master for certain duration. This is largely imaginary at this point, as I've never seen this happen myself, but it's worth looking into. Yet another example is people's reliance on authority status - when an authority says something, many people are inclined to believe it just because.

You will note these are all exceptions to the rule however. Outside of these narrowly defined areas, people largely ignore any advice they are given. It is for that reason many people who have something to say keep it to themselves - they don't want to waste their time. Sometimes I bump into someone misguided and I just look at them smiling politely without saying much. Sometimes I also see people smiling politely at me, when that happens I try to unwind last few minutes of my words to see what could have gone wrong...

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A bunch of clones is no fun at all and doesn't give the proper vision. Can you explain what this sentence means? Frankly, your English is crap and your vocabulary confused (particularly your articles), so I have a hard time understanding you. I'm telling you straight up in the hope that you'll learn and benefit from my criticism, since I am a very experienced native-English speaker. I hate wasting my time reading in…

Congratulations on your English proficiency; it's very impressive.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, I think wereabout was trying to see how I handle criticism, but it is really not a good experiment since we are talking about coding and not English skills. Truthfully, I've had to deal with too many psychologists and social workers in the early part of my career to be rattled by that foolishness. I am long past the worrying about a education on a reservation has affected my English grammar or writing. Particularly when we are talking about messages on a forum scribbled off in haste. Also, that is not the language or tone to express a critique unless you get paid by the media to be outrageous.

So, detouring back to the full explanation. The dictionary definition for the meaning of clone I was referring to is "a person or thing regarded as identical to another". Hiring people that are basically the same is boring and doesn't lead to a diversity of though or experience. Its fine having similar friends and you will grow with them, but a business shouldn't operate that way. You owe it to yourself and your investors to cover as much ground in experience and knowledge as possible.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#96
Cynical people grossly over-estimate the value of their criticism. People either take pride in their work, and are self-critical, or they aren't, but if someone worked hard developing something, you complaining about the features you don't like just lowers their opinion of you. Focus on the positive, let them see the negatives on their own (everyone does).

Developing open-source software is an instant cure for cynicism. Having your software torn apart from strangers who've contributed nothing is a quick fix for criticizing others.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#97
post #93

This blog reminds me of something I heard in an interview with Dr. Roy Baumeister. He pointed out that when he works with grad students he has to actively criticize and knock down most of the ideas that his male students have because they are full of testosterone and hubris and he has to actively draw out his female students to build their confidence. He told some of his grad students this years ago and they thought…

It's not just women who prefer this communication style, by the way. As a male, I find the constant jockying for position among other men to be tiresome and stressful. It's particularly acute among other coders. To be honest, it's also one of the main reasons I don't maintain many friendships with men. There are others still who are often excluded in this kind of environment: minorities, LGBTs, and people who are shy…

I feel the same way, but I think it is wrong to consider that style bad. We shouldn't have to contain our natural exuberance and energy all the time. A true diversity would provide some place for it.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#98
This touches on a problem I see with some new programmers. They focus too much on learning and programming for attention from other programmers and not enough on in-depth mastery for its own sake and building things that help people. If you want some recognition after you finish something, then show it to someone who cares about you (family/friends).

That said, the current senior programming culture has forced this situation upon us by overvaluing the importance of blogs and toy projects.

The critical question posed in the interview seemed fine. That's the last place I'd expect to hear positive feedback: the goal is to find out quickly how qualified a person is and that means asking hard questions.

There are lots of intermingled problems in education, hiring, and culture that are irking the author but I don't think anyone's been able to concisely explain the problem and solution yet. Edit to add: we really need a Joel Spolsky 2.0 to enlighten us.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed t…

This might seem like a strange comparison, but this reminds me of how positive reinforcement is related to training animals and small children. When you use positive reinforcement as a learning tool, the individual is more predisposed to behave properly and will want to follow your cues more. It could be the reason they're no longer coming to you is you're not giving them enough encouragement and positive feedback. Y…

It's a great comparison, and related to the folk wisdom of "you catch more flies with honey." Using punishment on animals often causes avoidance and aggression, which isn't usually the overt objective.

So maybe we shouldn't be surprised when punishing coworkers causes avoidance and aggression (especially when we are not being genuinely constructive or don't have solid reasoning). And maybe we should recognize that this isn't usually what we want for an institution primarily oriented toward building useful products.

Then a big question is why people keep repeating abusive cycles even when they manifestly doesn't work. Maybe they think these things work despite abundant disconfirming evidence. But I think a more common answer is that making things work in that sense isn't a real objective. The real objective is to exercise their own aggression and show dominance because that's what works for them. The bad dog owner doesn't really kick the dog for pooping on the carpet to make it stop, but because it's gratifying to kick the dog and have it be afraid. If the poop is not an undesired outcome, but only a sign of insufficient submission, then it is a sufficient correction to convincingly reassert dominance (and no dog wants to be kicked).

If our response to punishment-induced avoidance, as in much of this HN thread, is then to tear the avoiders down socially for not heeding our manifestly expert criticisms, I think what's going on is probably more about entitlement to aggression and reinforcement of dominance than productivity of the relationship. We might believe or state that we are offering helpful but unpleasant medicine, but if our response to the patient not taking it is some kind of social aggression rather than anything effective, that suggests our unstated emotional reasons are not as we would have others believe.

This attitude fits with the tech idea that the social structure, the company, etc. are actually meritocracies. Actual meritocracy sounds fine, but the ideology that we are IN a meritocracy has other uses. If I am in a position to abuse you, I will naturally tend to believe that this is because I am actually better than you and I am entitled to abuse you. In turn, I may accept this system because eventually seniority will allow me to become the abuser. Like dedovshchina and institutions at many boys' schools and fraternities, and exactly like tech hiring as well.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#100
post #32

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

Your point is spot on for a good senior level person in any field. Being supportive and letting people fail or succeed with positive reinforcement helps move a working environment in a better direction. When that environment is better then you will attract and retain better quality employees. Win-win all around but just depends on how the senior level people and management act and create that environment in the begin…

I try to address this by asking a lot of questions about why they're choosing to do something in a particular way. Don't go at it with trying to poke holes in it (which is the point of the original post), but rather to understand what they are doing and why. Ultimately, the job of the senior person/manager is to set the vision/direction and ultimately trust the person to do what's right. This is hard with junior people, but you were allowed to screw up (and succeed) when younger, so allow them to do the same thing :-)
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