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“Nothing you can do impresses me”

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Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#31

Post by dnfehren »

One cause of this seems to me to be that most things that people would want to show off (and then possible get smacked down for) have a high enough level of complexity that they can be hard to quickly and constructively criticize by someone outside of the process of making the thing.

Rather than try to seek out the good work that someone has done many levels deep in their code - a time consuming process that might depend on an intimate knowledge of the application, its requirements and the processes of those who made it - it's way easier to find a flaw (usually a flaw that you know is flaw because you've made the same mistake) and point that out. Or, rather than a real discussion of what assumptions the creator made and how they may have led to a less-than-ideal solution to a problem it's way easier to say 'wrong, next.'

Really serious review and criticism is great but it depends on a lot of effort in building context to make it useful for all the people involved.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#32

Post by dmarg »

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

Your point is spot on for a good senior level person in any field. Being supportive and letting people fail or succeed with positive reinforcement helps move a working environment in a better direction. When that environment is better then you will attract and retain better quality employees. Win-win all around but just depends on how the senior level people and management act and create that environment in the beginning.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#33

Post by tfigueroa »

jnbiche wrote: post #26
tfigueroa wrote: post #25

If a candidate feels "about an inch tall" because of inane criticism, perhaps it is the candidate that needs to put things in perspective.

Is criticism in a job interview "inane criticism"?

Not always, but sometimes.

In the hyperbolic hypothetical in the article, "But it isn't responsive!" would be a pretty silly criticism, I think.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#34

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

nercury wrote: post #8

If you want to see real delight in your work, do it for someone who needs it! They are usually not your co-workers :)

This comment holds more truth than is evident.

The fact is, people who hire you don't actually want you to be better than them. This, I think, contributes largely to the criticism culture of programming.

Of course, many interviewers have good intentions. Unfortunately, malign developers (dare I say, jealous?) are prone to setting a trend for the type of questions that are asked.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#36

Post by Practicality »

Being in the senior position I have had both attitudes (critical AND supportive), and I can tell you it has to do with how the ideas are presented to me.

Sometimes the new developer will come in and talk about how his new thing is better than everything else, and everything written before him was garbage. You can bet he will get a lot of criticism. This is not some ego thing (although I am sure that does have an effect), but because it's clearly what he needs in order to gain perspective. I mean, unless he really did create something that awesome, but so far that has not occurred.

On the other hand, I have had people show me things that are not very good, but the idea is good and she just wants to show me. In those cases I have a lot of praise for her and encourage her to develop it further

Likewise, if the person is just looking for input, I will usually focus on the positive.

While it may not always be true, if you find you get a lot of criticism it may be because you are overly promoting your own work.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#38

Post by dhimes »

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

It's not just 'this industry.' You'll find people in all professions who try to make themselves look and feel smart by throwing stones at other ideas. Frankly, it can be effective. Non-expert outside observers (sometimes this means managers) can be impressed by such cheap-shot artists.

It's easy to criticize, but hard to create; critical responses are the low-hanging fruit of intellectual discourse.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#39

Post by serve_yay »

protomyth wrote: post #22

My main hiring qualification has been "Will this person continue to write code that will make me get up in the middle of the night?" or "Will this person contribute to me only working 40 hours and having no emergencies?". I try not to hire the former and hire the later. The culture thing in the second paragraph is bull. A bunch of clones is no fun at all and doesn't give the proper vision. That being said, the "Nothi…

> This is the same crap attitude that leads directly to ageism since experience is not valued.

Great point, I had not considered that.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#40

Post by moron4hire »

I understand what she is saying, and actually mostly agree. However...

Teaching and mentoring are not software development. More teaching and mentoring need to be done, but it's not the business I'm in. I'm in the business of making software.

If I have a critical project that must be done right and done on time, I will not hire junior developers for the team. It's nothing against the jr. dev., but in these scenarios I just need the A-Team showing up and I don't have time to setup a training regimen.

Yes, it would be great if there were a good means to train and bring up new developers. Most of the universities in the world are failing to train people to be good developers. Maybe we need a master's of engineering in software development, with a real engineering certification at the end (and not the IEEE bullshit one that has nothing to do with software development). Sure, the top-tier engineering schools like MIT and CMU are putting out good, jr. devs., but most people in the market didn't get to go to one of those schools. Most people went to your run of the mill state school, where nobody cared enough to buck the status quo and fail them out of their classes if they couldn't hack it. That any good developers come out of such a system is despite the system. The pressure to keep graduation rates up has done a monumental disservice to everyone involved.

Sports teams have farm leagues they can run and groom out excellent players. Microsoft and Google and Apple have people throwing themselves at their doorsteps and can cherry pick the best of the best. I'm a freelance consultant trying to make a go of being more than just a freelance consultant. I don't have that kind of time on my projects.

Speaking of which, if you're an excellent developer with experience in .NET, GIS, javascript, and relational databases--and can devote up to 20 hours a week to a project--please contact me through my profile here.

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