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A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

economist.com

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Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#101
post #88
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the fact that there is a very small chance that a person may kill themselves with a gun does not mean the government should deny that person the right to own a gun. And people with a history of mental illness are already excluded from owning guns.

This article is a comparison of deaths caused by vehicles and guns as well as a comparison of the amount of government regulation between the two, not an argument to ban the 2nd Amendment. One point in the article is the lack of oversight on gun sales to criminals.

One point in the article is the lack of oversight on gun sales to criminals.

If we're talking about "gun sales to criminals," we are way way less likely to be caring about gun suicides.

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accepting the premise that it's a good thing that the population at large can own guns, their argument is that they're thinking a few steps ahead: If smartguns become popular, the government can then outlaw non-smartguns without too many people caring (they can still own and fire guns). Then the smart-stuff is leveraged to "enhance" security - transferring ownership, for an example, could be made subject to a governm…

Is the "keep the government in line" thing really a reason that anybody actually believes anymore? Like, if things got so bad that the government was "turning on its own people" with weaponry, somebody really thinks some guys with guns from Wal-Mart are going to be what stops them?

There are people that believe that's already happened. The Waco & Ruby Ridge incidents of the 90s fueled the "government out to get you" mindset and started people talking about "not letting it happen again". And by talking I mean openly in mainline churches in the midwest-not gun shop boasting.

Since then it seems like federal law enforcement has taken a softer touch with their sieges. This could be simply a change in doctrine to avoid bad press but enough people believe it's more than that.

Also, these days it isn't so much about guys with guns from Wal-Mart as it is country boys that did a couple tours in IQ/AF as a 11something and their friends. That's also why the NRA is touchy about funding for studies on things--there's a perception that "the powers that be" want to diagnose everyone who served with PTSD and then use that as a reason to take away their guns. This is compounded by some despair over disarming IQ villagers so they are easy pickings for ISIS and the perception that "they were training us to do it back home".

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#103
post #47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the fact that there is a very small chance that a person may kill themselves with a gun does not mean the government should deny that person the right to own a gun. And people with a history of mental illness are already excluded from owning guns.

This argument seems at odds with the claim that suicide constitutes the majority of the deaths.

EDIT

Even though most gun deaths are suicide [1], your odds of killing yourself via suicide are still low. There's slightly less than 1% chance of your life ending via suicide. Taking away guns to stop suicides is a pretty big NNT.

===

[1]

Accidental discharge: 591

Suicide by firearm: 19,990

Assault by firearm: 11,068

Unknown involving firearms: 248

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_03.pdf

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#104
post #4

From the article: > By contrast, safety features on firearms—such as smartguns unlocked by an owner’s thumbprint or a radio-frequency encryption—are opposed by the National Rifle Association, whose allies in Congress also block funding for the sort of public-health research that might show, in even clearer detail, the cost of America’s love affair with guns. Can someone explain the NRA to me? At this point they come…

The NRA is against anything which gets in the way of a patriot and their duty. RFID and similiar 'safety' features can be used by the government to identify gun owners, confiscate weapons and suppress the public's right to revolt against their tyranny. Americans have a sacred right enshrined into the Constutition to be able to bear arms in order to respond to the presence of government with deadly force.

It's no different the the argument people here sometimes make that black markets and TOR are necessary for freedom of speech and civil liberties, even if having them means enabling criminal activity - because the greater threat is always the threat of a government which can't be spoken up against. In the case of guns, the greater threat is always a government which can't be put down.

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#105
post #93
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

I believe the point is that if the chance of suicide is very small, and the mentally ill are forbidden from owning guns, it would seemingly be at odds with the claim that "over half of all quoted gun deaths" are suicides.

I don't see the direct connection between the suicide risk of a single gun owner and the ratio of suicide to homicide in total gun deaths.

The claim regarding suicide vs homicide is easy to confirm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...). It is not possible to predict every suicide, the best we can do is make an approximation using obvious risk factors like hospitalization for mental illness. There are millions of gun owners in the US, so yes the chance of a suicide is small.

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#106
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, among the key facts necessary to understand that is that the "safety features" are not pure cost-free benefit, and the NRA believes the costs outweigh the benefits. They have some decent arguments for the existence of the costs; reasonable people could disagree about the relative degree of each. It is also not generally the case that guns are always "bad"; guns are also significantly used in self-defense, usual…

> Well, among the key facts necessary to understand that is that the "safety features" are not pure cost-free benefit, and the NRA believes the costs outweigh the benefits. They have some decent arguments for the existence of the costs; reasonable people could disagree about the relative degree of each. Sure. Advanced safety features in cars probably cost a lot to develop, too, and I'm sure there's a lot of people wh…

> > Well, among the key facts necessary to understand that is that the "safety features" are not pure cost-free benefit, and the NRA believes the costs outweigh the benefits.

> Sure. Advanced safety features in cars probably cost a lot to develop, too, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who think seatbelts are lame and cars would be cooler without them. But car companies actively work to promote safety while the NRA seems to actively undermine it.

The cost at issue here is generally not monetary. Most safety features are designed to prevent the weapon from firing, which gives rise to the expression "loaded club."

Consider, e.g., the magazine safety, which prevents a semi-automatic weapon from firing without a magazine, even if a round is already chambered. If I owned a handgun, which I do not, I would absolutely want this feature. The likelihood that it would prevent a potentially fatal negligent discharge is much higher than the likelihood that it would be the decisive factor in me losing a gunfight. However, there are combat techniques that depend on the weapon firing without a magazine, and competitions in which it would be difficult or impossible to participate without that ability. There is also the risk that the safety would otherwise interfere with the operation of the weapon.

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the "keep the government in line" thing really a reason that anybody actually believes anymore? Like, if things got so bad that the government was "turning on its own people" with weaponry, somebody really thinks some guys with guns from Wal-Mart are going to be what stops them?

Honestly? It's not a far step away from the kind of firepower they lost to in Vietnam and Iraq.

A US government worth overthrowing by armed insurrection and that couldn't be overthrown some other way would practically by definition be willing and able to engage in some really nasty practices to put down a domestic rebellion. Like, filling-mass-graves nasty. Shooting at them wouldn't help.

Sympathy from the armed forces and various forms of political pressure, foreign and domestic, would be far more helpful than a few deer rifles, and if you've got that your private arms aren't really necessary. A domestic rebellion wouldn't win by shooting enough people, it'd win when the tactics necessary to stop it were beyond what the government and/or military were willing to do.

Guns are much more useful when:

1) the enemy is foreign (killing enough people actually might make them go away), and/or

2) your position doesn't actually have popular support so other means are unavailable to you, and/or

3) foreign powers have the will and capacity to bomb the shit out of your country if the government goes too far in its attempts to suppress your uprising (this, or loss of military support for the government, are basically the only reasons authoritarian states fail to stop revolutions in the modern world)

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#108
Comparing cause-of-death rates between automobiles and firearms is a lot like comparing the median number of miles traveled riding in a car versus carrying a gun.

Death is a possible unintended side effect of riding in an automobile. Death is the explicit primary purpose of discharging a gunpowder weapon.

Thus, this is far more laudable accomplishment for automotive safety than it is a deplorable statistic for gun owners. Cars now cause less deaths by accident than a consumer product that is actually designed to kill things when used correctly. Yay.

I don't ever have an absolute need to own or use a gun, but it is practically impossible to earn a profitable living without spending at least 40 minutes per day driving in my car, or riding in any other form of on-road transportation.

I don't particularly feel like the jerkass riding on the hard shoulder at 50 mph to bypass a rush-hour jam is in any way comparable to someone who plinks beer bottles--the ones they just emptied--off their back fence without stopping to consider if there are neighbors living in that general direction. They could even be the same guy. If so, I meet him far more often on the road.

Neither guns nor cars kill without an operator--not yet, anyway. If I am now less at risk from an idiot behind a wheel than an idiot with his finger on the trigger, that is unequivocally good news, because I encounter far more of the former. But the article doesn't exactly break the statistics down by intent. I suspect that rates of deaths by gun due to accident or operator negligence are still less than deaths by vehicle due to accident or operator negligence.

So I still feel like guns are safer for me than the average person, because I don't particularly feel like anyone has an actual desire to kill me specifically, especially given my own disinclination toward suicide.

The article doesn't tell me anything meaningful. It seems to be presenting the statistics in a very narrowly interpreted way to advance a particular editorial point of view. The Economist might as well tell me how likely I am to die from falling off a ladder while cleaning my gutters, and compare that to deaths by food poisoning, except that there are far fewer passionate advocates for pasteurization and ladder stabilization bars.

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#109
post #4

From the article: > By contrast, safety features on firearms—such as smartguns unlocked by an owner’s thumbprint or a radio-frequency encryption—are opposed by the National Rifle Association, whose allies in Congress also block funding for the sort of public-health research that might show, in even clearer detail, the cost of America’s love affair with guns. Can someone explain the NRA to me? At this point they come…

Thing many people are missing, I think, is that the position of the NRA is not necessarily based on the merits of that particular issue. It is based on the STRATEGIC view of the political battle to restrict and eliminate firearm ownership.

The gun control side claims they "don't want to take away your guns" or they "don't want to take away all guns" but when you look at DC and Chicago, where they have the most power, they completely banned private ownership of handguns. This demonstrates their goal, and this is what the NRA is fighting against.

It is much harder to repeal a gun control law than to pass it (if you look at things on the scale of decades and/or centuries), partly because this is a demographic issue and the pro-gun demographic is smaller and shrinking.

So the NRA has absolutely no incentive to concede ground in the battle for private gun ownership. I've never heard a gun control proponent suggest "OK if you give us background checks, registration and capacity limits, we will loosen gun laws in states where they are more strict and promise never ever to go further." That would be compromise. I've never heard it, neither has the NRA.

That is why they are absolutists, because ultimately so is the other side. (Their leadership anyway, which is what counts, not the moderate "let's split the difference" voter who only cares about the issue when its a major news item.)

Re: A gun is now more likely to kill you than a car is in the U.S

#110
post #22

Including suicides seems unfair. > The U.S. Department of Justice reports that approximately 60% of all adult firearm deaths are by suicide, 61% more than deaths by homicide. [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Stat...

> Including suicides seems unfair. Why?

gun owners place a high value on agency. I have wondered if one reason they tend to not see suicides as legitimate in gun death stats is because they tend to see suicide as a willful act that a person also has a right to. Just a speculation...
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