Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities • Hacker News Board

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#181

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 12:22 AM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #128

logfromblammo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer, so forgive me for trying to apply logic to the law. What set cardinality would be minimally necessary to generate a police duty to protect a group, if it is not one? "The public" is, after all, nothing more than a set of individuals. Two? Three? Ten? A million? Are police subject to some selfish calculus where they are not obligated to risk their own lives unless it would save more than N non-polic…

> I am not a lawyer, so forgive me for trying to apply logic to the law. Your first mistake is presuming that you're applying logic. That's not what you're doing. Your second mistake is presuming that you're commenting on the law. You're commenting on an interpretation of the law . With, I might add, your own interpretation based explicitly on admitted ignorance. > What set cardinality would be minimally necessary to…

You really should read the details of Warren vs DC. Your response implies that you have not.

I'll summarize for you.

A woman with a toddler was the subject of a home invasion and sexual assault. Her two upstairs neighbors called 911 to report a crime in progress.

Police arrived on the scene, but then left without investigating.

The upstairs neighbors called 911 again, 20 minutes later, as they were still hearing screams from Warren being raped downstairs. The police did not return.

The intruders then noticed that other people were present in the house, and sexually assaulted the upstairs neighbors, too. FOR FOURTEEN CONSECUTIVE HOURS.

The court literally ruled that the police were not even obligated to show up for the five minutes that they spent on the call, utterly failing to notice the screaming rape victim being assaulted in her own home.

They weren't off saving someone else from a more serious crime. Because what would that be, really?

This is not a matter of the police being held to too high of a standard, or being blamed for not stopping all the crime in their city. It is a matter of police being held to no standard at all, with no responsibility for any crimes in their city.

And you can bet that everyone that gets a ticket in DC will forever after be comparing the diligence their cops show toward sitting in their cars with radar guns with that shown when people whose lives are threatened actually want their help.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#182

Post by ende » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

diyorgasms wrote: post #148

rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NY Post has been crowing about what a disaster this is and how it's de Blasio's fault. In my opinion, they're missing a tremendous opportunity. If you're an economic conservative, public unions should be your enemy #1. They have tremendous leverage in local politics, and the fat pensions they've voted for themselves are the top economic problem facing states and municipalities. Supporting de Blasio against the po…

I think the difference is that the Post and most right-wing media in the USA support not the libertarian notion of conservatism, but a more authoritarian version.

Same can be said of the libertarian notion of liberalism. Many Americans of both stripes tend to be authoritarian.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#183

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

smtddr wrote: post #31

Let me add this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-bene... >>But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

Very few arrests are necessary to maintain public order, especially in the short term.

Nobody is going to die if you don't arrest a guy for jerking it on the subway.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#184

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #113

krschultz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with the sentiment that police are overbuying toys, but if there is any city where the police are justified in having that kind of stuff, it's New York. The terrorists are not going to attack St Louis Missouri, but they have attacked New York multiple times. I say this having just seen the NYPD bomb squad show up to investigate a bag outside my apartment this morning.

> The terrorists are not going to attack St Louis Missouri, but they have attacked New York multiple times. Which of these attacks required armored cars to fend off?

Stuff like Mumbai attacks or the North Hollywood Shootout.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#185

Post by pcthrowaway » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 2:44 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #179

pcthrowaway wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, but you've just picked one of Canada's most violent cities and compared it to an arbitrary American city, which is also relatively safe. By the way, the Canadian city with the highest murder rate (Red Deer, with a murder rate of 6.4 http://www.macleans.ca/worst-cities/ ) has a lower murder rate than nearly every city on this list of American cities by crime statistics ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Uni…

I think the point is that guns laws and attitudes don't paint the whole picture. You have a city in an extremely gun-tolerant state (Washington) that has lower violent crime than a city in an extremely anti-gun area (Surrey). This suggests at least that low crime with liberal gun ownership laws is possible, and also suggests that gun ownership is not a primary factor in determining the level of violent crime.

Those are just two cities. Saying an incredibly safe city in a 'gun-tolerant' state (though I'm pretty sure it's not particularly gun-tolerant in attitude compared to the southern U.S.) is safer than one of the more dangerous cities of a gun-intolerant countries doesn't prove anything. Those are just two data points in a much more complicated graph. Overall Canada is much safer than the U.S. That doesn't mean every city in Canada is safer than every city in the U.S. However, guns are much harder to get in Canada, and that is believed by many to be a main contributing factor to it's lower rates of gun crime

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#186

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 3:10 AM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #181

saraid216 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not a lawyer, so forgive me for trying to apply logic to the law. Your first mistake is presuming that you're applying logic. That's not what you're doing. Your second mistake is presuming that you're commenting on the law. You're commenting on an interpretation of the law . With, I might add, your own interpretation based explicitly on admitted ignorance. > What set cardinality would be minimally necessary to…

You really should read the details of Warren vs DC . Your response implies that you have not. I'll summarize for you. A woman with a toddler was the subject of a home invasion and sexual assault. Her two upstairs neighbors called 911 to report a crime in progress. Police arrived on the scene, but then left without investigating. The upstairs neighbors called 911 again, 20 minutes later, as they were still hearing scr…

You're right. I haven't read it. I'll do so.

Aaaaand nope, I still agree with the court findings. I think that the dispatch officer and the officers who checked the house should be disciplined by an internal affairs investigation, and possibly that the procedures followed by officers should be updated to respond more usefully to claims of burglary. I can't be exactly sure which of these things I would have liked to happen because I'm unfamiliar with the details of how and why the DC Metro Police operate, and I'm therefore not sure exactly where the blame of incompetence actually lies.

But to suggest that the officers in question had a special duty to the women is still wrong. The dispatcher was informed that a burglary was in progress, not a rape. I have no idea why Warren decided this was a wiser course of action, nor any idea if the dispatcher simply heard or recorded it incorrectly; given that the dispatcher also used the wrong code, I'm inclined to give Warren the benefit of the doubt over the dispatcher.

So yeah. It's strange and possibly suspicious that the officer who knocked on the door failed to notice screaming from the second floor. It's not clear to me that an officer should break into a private home to prevent a burglary, but I am also not a lawyer, so I'm not familiar with the case law on when a policeman should or should not force entry. My instincts say that it would be a Fourth Amendment violation.

If he heard the screaming, then the lack of forced entry is the failure. If a Code 2 burglary merits forced entry, then that is the failure. But presuming good faith on his part--i.e., that he didn't hear anything--then I find his actions entirely reasonable and your demand that he stop a crime that he had no idea was going on completely unreasonable. To suggest that his time was best spent doing nothing but verifying that Douglas or Warren, specifically, was not being raped is to suggest a special duty over and above the general duty a policeman has to the general public.

Source: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9108468254125174...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#187

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 3:45 AM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #138

utefan001 wrote: post #94

Stopping the aggressive pursuit of people selling individual cigarettes would be a good place to start. If cigarette taxes are too damn high, people will find a cheaper way to smoke. Quit picking on poor people that smoke. Note: I don't smoke or drink.

If the cigarettes were purchased as a pack at a retail store, then resold individually, the tax has already been paid. >Quit picking on poor people that smoke. Are you referring to cigarette taxes or the law banning the selling individual cigarettes? If the former, as a non-smoker, I do not wish to continue covering the cost of health care for those that choose to smoke.

"If the cigarettes were purchased as a pack at a retail store, then resold individually, the tax has already been paid."

Unless they were purchased in a jurisdiction without that tax.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#188

Post by discardorama » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 5:41 AM UTC

korzun wrote: post #177

discardorama wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were these the first officers ever killed in the line of duty? No. It was a tragedy, no doubt about it. I feel bad for the families of these officers, who died simply because of the color of their uniform. But has the NYPD union ever expressed any sorrow for the loss of Eric Garner? How about Amadou Diallo? Or Akai Gurley? Please read this before responding: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/179-nypd-invo…

Read what? I live in this neighborhood and grew up around here. Where did you grow up? Entertain me please. You realize that Eric was selling cigarettes (no id) to high school kids for months right? You realize that most people with families (majority) in that neighborhood, do not support him... right? Yes he died. Everything went well during his previous arrests. When he decided to resist he knew what he was getting…

> Read what? I live in this neighborhood and grew up around here.

Totally, absolutely, irrelevant. I don't need to live in your neighborhood to have an opinion. And just by geographical proximity your opinion doesn't get any magical powers.

> You realize that Eric was selling cigarettes (no id) to high school kids for months right? ... (blah blah blah)

It was not an arrestable offence. Selling "loosies" gets your a $100 fine, not an arrest. Read the laws.

> If you want to claim that multiple officers that detained him over last few years were all targeting him and making up stories, just so they can force him to resist arrest, feel free.

Strawman. You keep making up things in your head and then arguing against them.

The crime was of selling loose cigs, not selling to children. It was a tax issue, plain and simple. This "selling to children" claim was tacked on later (oh please, won't anybody THINK of the children!!1!!11!).

And BTW: I've lived in worse communities. Try the City of Buffalo, for instance.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#189

Post by nerfhammer » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 7:52 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #36

j_m_b wrote: post #7

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of peopl…

Apparently one of the reasons cited by some is that the decrease is due to police doubling up -not patrolling solo, due to perceived possible threats from possible crazies, and this doubling up has taken away availability to address non crucial policing matters...

NYPD rarely patrols solo

source: http://forums.officer.com/t146829/

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#190

Post by nerfhammer » Thu, Jan 08, 2015, 8:06 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #89

gharial wrote: post #29

I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were…

The NY Post has been crowing about what a disaster this is and how it's de Blasio's fault. In my opinion, they're missing a tremendous opportunity. If you're an economic conservative, public unions should be your enemy #1. They have tremendous leverage in local politics, and the fat pensions they've voted for themselves are the top economic problem facing states and municipalities. Supporting de Blasio against the po…

It's almost as if the NYPost only cares about selling papers using simple, moralistic stories and doesn't actually care about making the city a better place