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Je Suis Charlie

charliehebdo.fr

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Re: Je Suis Charlie

#181

Post by dragonwriter »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #178
DanBC wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on: in england we had blasphemy laws that meant you could not do an equivalent of the mohamed cartoons using christ (those laws have recently gone); and we had racial discrimination laws which meant you could not have an equivalent of the mohamed cartoons using g*d. It's not some radical muslim fundamentalist conspiracy to extend these protections to muslims. (I am not saying it's the right thing to do. I think…

The UK establishment appears to be side with Christianity being openly mocked (viz a special show on Tim Rice choosing to lead with songs and artists mocking Christianity being scheduled for prime-time Christmas day). In contrast the BBC will not even mention that attacks were perpetrated by muslims [rightly or wrongly] 'in the name of Islam' in news reports. > you could not do an equivalent of the mohamed cartoons u…

Jesus Christ Superstar doesn't mock Christianity or its object of worship and respect. Certainly, its been argued by some as providing a too-sympathetic presentation of Judas Iscariot, and certainly many people don't like the way in which the presentation of the Passion is done (or the creators comments outside of the work portraying Christ as human but not divine), but there is nothing in the work mocking Christ or Christianity.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#182

Post by mercurial »

mieses wrote: post #169
mercurial wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I agree, it's just that the impression the FT tries to give ("Charlie Hebdo, the newspaper specialized in Muslim-baiting") is wrong. Hopefully nobody reading this thinks it's entirely reasonable to shoot people for a drawing.

But they are supposed to be free to practice their religion, which means shooting people for a drawing. Maybe religious freedom should not extend to psychopathic ideologies just as freedom to bear arms does not extend to personal nuclear weapons.

Freedom of religion does not extend to shooting people in the name of it in any western country. What are you talking about?

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#183

Post by sg47 »

mercer wrote: post #64

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they…

Muslims speaking up about this will not be enough. If they really condemn this, they should post these cartoons on their Facebook walls, newspapers, etc. That's the only way to show where they stand.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#184

Post by pbhjpbhj »

coldtea wrote: post #74
Kiro wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can muslims not be religious fanatics or what do you mean? Sorry if I missed something obvious with your comment.

He means it was "islamic fanaticism", so it's islams fault, and those other types are not fanatics... On the other hand the Sintoist Japanese did horrible attrocities in China and Korea back in the day, Israeli Jews can also be genocidal against Palestinians etc. And Christianity has had its share of crime, starting with the Crusades. Budhists might be better, dunno.

The difference with Islam is that the Koran advocates for violent persecution of non-muslims and that is something that the founder, Mohammed, took a great part in including murdering people [in battle and after when they refused to convert] and taking their wives as his possessions. It seems to me that if you choose to identify as a follower of Mohammed you can't uphold him as a paragon and oppose violence, those positions are contrary.

Sikhism has violent elements in it's historical fundamentals too, from what I've read. But they have appear to me to have been 'editted' out to some extent (cf history of the kirpan).

Whilst Shintoist Japanese were involved in horrible atrocities Shintoism, at least Confucian Shintoism, historically was quite anti-war.

Simply being an adherent of a particular way or faith or religion and performing violence doesn't make that 'way' a violent one. There is a great difference between this and the foundation and fundamental teachings including violence.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#185

Post by DanBC »

mercer wrote: post #168
DanBC wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By everyone continuing to utilize their freedom of speech. It's really that simple. The only way to lose is to not make use of your freedom. Do you think normal daily newspapers should print the cartoons? How about KKK cartoon propaganda? How about "With Jews you lose"? http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/with-...

I don't really see how this is the same thing. Can you elaborate?

Why is it okay to print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Muslim[1] but not print shitty zero-value cartoons that are anti-Jew or anti-other-minority?

[1] and these cartoons are anti-Muslim, pushing ignorance and bigotry.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#186

Post by meapix »

vixen99 wrote: post #160
pierrec wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.

Perhaps this is the reason and I can't understand what the problem is myself. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...

The christianity's history is not clean either.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#187

Post by meapix »

vixen99 wrote: post #156
yodsanklai wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's flagged because this type of news usually doesn't lead to interesting comments. Yes, freedom of speech is important and I suppose all readers feel sad about what happened, but what can we do about it? Three uneducated, brainwashed guys decided to kill satirists that offended them by making fun of their prophet a few years ago. The problem lies in poverty, lack of education, propaganda... it's not going t…

Trick those kids? Seems there are a lot of kids. http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/01/what-if-these-lone-wolves-w...

Bush killing thousands of people is not in there. Oh I see, it's not on the name of Christianity. French colonialism traces are still felt in many countries, oh I see, it's not on the name of Christianity.

Who gives a crap about in the name of what, it's a crime.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#188

Post by pbhjpbhj »

dragonwriter wrote: post #181
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK establishment appears to be side with Christianity being openly mocked (viz a special show on Tim Rice choosing to lead with songs and artists mocking Christianity being scheduled for prime-time Christmas day). In contrast the BBC will not even mention that attacks were perpetrated by muslims [rightly or wrongly] 'in the name of Islam' in news reports. > you could not do an equivalent of the mohamed cartoons u…

Jesus Christ Superstar doesn't mock Christianity or its object of worship and respect. Certainly, its been argued by some as providing a too-sympathetic presentation of Judas Iscariot, and certainly many people don't like the way in which the presentation of the Passion is done (or the creators comments outside of the work portraying Christ as human but not divine), but there is nothing in the work mocking Christ or…

You've got me, I don't know JCS so well. I've played the main songs on the piano.

The BBC's special used Herod mocking Christ sung by an ardent atheist as the opener to a Christmas day program "They think they've found the new Messiah, And they'll hurt You when they find they're wrong".

That's like doing a feature on Denmark for Eid and opening, just coincidentally of course, with Jyllands-Posten's Mohammed cartoons.

FWIW they followed that with "I Don't Know How To Love Him" which has a strong undercurrent of suggesting an erotic triste between Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

Then to follow was Judas singing "Jesus Christ, Superstar, Do you think you're what they say you are?" which is a statement of incredulity as much as anything.

Now Tim Rice's music is great and there's a place for Superstar for sure. In general it can be seen as an enquiry but this selection to lead off on Christmas day, to me, was mocking.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#189

Post by eumenides1 »

I disagree with actually all the comics. I don't think anybody is "charlie" in those comics. Everyone is saying they are "charlie", but nobody is "charlie" because none of those comics are depicting the prophet mohammed as charlie clearly would have.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#190

Post by DanBC »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #180
DanBC wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These attacks are likely to promote freedoms of speech and to slow down people calling for restrictions. My position used to be one of asking people to consider whether the value of printing a shitty cartoon is worth causing deep offence to very many people. The murders have changed my position to supporting -with caution- the printing of these cartoons.

> the value of printing a shitty cartoon is worth causing deep offence to very many people // Mostly they're choosing to be offended, they're seeking out something to be offended by. It's a case of "we want to be violent against people who oppose our views, so we'll look and find things we can call offensive and use that to justify murder and violence". It's behaviour that seems very true to the war-lord that inspire…

I'm not talking about extremists but about the vast majority of moderate Muslims.

And it's not just "offence" - this type of material promotes ignorance and fear and it marginalises and already marginalised minority.

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