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Je Suis Charlie

charliehebdo.fr

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Re: Je Suis Charlie

#131

Post by tjradcliffe »

krig wrote: post #22

This is horrible, and we as a society need to somehow make this kind of thing not happen. I have no idea what that means in practice, though. It seems everything that has been tried so far has only escalated the hatred and strengthened the extremists. Also, at a time like this it is important not to forget that the last major terrorist attack in Europe was instigated by a fundamentalist christian norwegian. https://e…

We should adopt a very simple policy: the satire will continue until the killings stop.

This puts the onus on the Islamist murderers to stop killing people. When they stop killing people for making fun of them for being religion-addled killers, the number of people making fun of them for being religion-addled murderers will start a long slow decline, until eventually it will, as it were, die away.

Until then, we should all make fun of them for being murderous anti-Bayesians, because they are.

We should also depict the Prophet Muhammad ~0:-{= frequently and with great glee, because offending murderers and defending free speech is way more important than delicately tiptoeing around the sensibilities of the vast majority of Muslims, who are in any case the primary victims of Islamist hatred.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#132

Post by mercer »

pierrec wrote: post #126
mercer wrote: post #64

My heart sunk as soon as I heard the terrorists were muslim extremists, as here in Holland anti-immigrant and anti-muslim feelings are very present, and these incidents are fuel on the fire of racism here. I really, really hope that people from different muslim communities speak up as well. In past incidents there was a lot of silence, usually prompted by fear (I suspect). I understand if they don't, but I hope they…

Agreed. The potential backlash against innocent French and European Muslims is one of the scariest things in these events. France is full of closeted (and not-so-closeted) islamophobic fascists, and this attack of violence against words is almost guaranteed to cause some of them to unite and multiply their aggressiveness and stupidity. It is not a good day for the Muslim world.

I've been involved with some projects involving muslim cultural centers here, and I've spent a large part of my life in a country that was largely muslim. While I have many issues with Islam, and while I see how predominantly secular Western (European?) culture clashes with many of it's values, I found the experience of 'muslim culture' (which I do realize is not homogenous) almost uniformly enriching. I have a number of friends who have spent a lot of time in the Middle-East, and they feel the same way.

It frustrates me to see the non-specific, general anger against muslims in my country, and how shrewd right-wing politicians use this for support. I hope that I won't have to show support to both sides against extremism, but I fear the worst.

This situation really scares me, as it was not too long ago that one of our prominent right-wing politicians (Geert Wilders) exclaimed 'do we want more or less moroccans', followed by a chanting of 'less' by his supporters.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#134

Post by discardorama »

308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like:

    2.  121 points, 3 hours ago ,  26 comments  
    3.  69 points , 2 hours ago ,  22 comments  
    5.  138 points, 4 hours ago ,  33 comments
    8.  80 points , 4 hours ago ,  28 comments
    9.  46 points , 3 hours ago ,  10 comments
    10. 56 points , 3 hours ago ,  19 comments
Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it was some Internet startup? Freedom of speech is important to all of us.

Martin Niemoller's "First they came for the Communists...." comes to mind: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#135

Post by [deleted] »

zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #109
DanBC wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ridiculing ideas is a victimless crime Propaganda using cartoons has been used at all levels of oppression from small groups targeting Others to genocide. Don't make the mistake of thinking that a cartoon is not an act of violence - because they can be. (Just for clarity: this does not mean they should be banned)

That's not saying much, though: everything can be considered an act of violence when interpreted by twisted minds. You can get assaulted just for merely looking at someone's wife. I am just shocked to hear a CNN representative say that we should find ways to avoid offending people with words: this is not just a futile endeavor, it's a very dangerous one that leads to thought police and arbitrary sentences.

[deleted]

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#136

Post by louwrentius »

tjradcliffe wrote: post #131
krig wrote: post #22

This is horrible, and we as a society need to somehow make this kind of thing not happen. I have no idea what that means in practice, though. It seems everything that has been tried so far has only escalated the hatred and strengthened the extremists. Also, at a time like this it is important not to forget that the last major terrorist attack in Europe was instigated by a fundamentalist christian norwegian. https://e…

We should adopt a very simple policy: the satire will continue until the killings stop. This puts the onus on the Islamist murderers to stop killing people. When they stop killing people for making fun of them for being religion-addled killers, the number of people making fun of them for being religion-addled murderers will start a long slow decline, until eventually it will, as it were, die away. Until then, we shou…

The satire will continue, wether or not the murdering stops. For ever. Because that's the concept of freedom of speech.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#137

Post by arcatek »

discardorama wrote: post #134

308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like: 2. 121 points, 3 hours ago , 26 comments 3. 69 points , 2 hours ago , 22 comments 5. 138 points, 4 hours ago , 33 comments 8. 80 points , 4 hours ago , 28 comments 9. 46 points , 3 hours ago , 10 comments 10. 56 points , 3 hours ago , 19 comments Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it wa…

Submissions about this story have been flagkilled all day.

I guess that it's to prevent abuses, but as you say, we are all affected. I think it's important to have a single main thread about this.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#138

Post by InclinedPlane »

jknz wrote: post #111
aragot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how mainstream newspapers in France are careful not to make the amalgam between these few barbarians and a whole religion Although it would be nice, from a PR standpoint, if some French Muslim organizations could condemn those events, becuase I don't know what most Muslims think about Charlie Hebdo. Have they? I have searched Google News for that and didn't find links, so please post if there are some. Or they may…

The president of the UOIF [1], the collective of all the French muslim organizations, is invited to speak at 8pm on France 2 (the national TV channel). Source: https://twitter.com/UOIF/status/552891285900894209 [1]: http://www.uoif-online.com/

See also:

http://www.uoif-online.com/communiques/horrible-attaque-au-s...

["The UOIF condemns in the strongest terms this criminal attack, and these horrible murders."](translated)

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#139

Post by DanBC »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #53
fennecfoxen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even aside from the blatantly unreasonable people, consider the reasonable people who don't think that you should have that freedom of speech. Demographic trends present in Europe today make eventual change in public policy on the matter an increasingly realistic prospect. This is one of the underlying reasons behind the European right's distress about rising influence of Muslims, and a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment a…

The democratic society has to convert people to a democratic, tolerant viewpoint at something approaching the rate at which people from other backgrounds enter the country. As far as I can see, that's the only thing that can possibly work.

Did you just say "immigrants"?

Many European born people are traveling to Syria to fight for ISIS. They're not being converted by extremist immigrants but by online communities and their extremist non-immigran friends.

Re: Je Suis Charlie

#140

Post by boracay »

discardorama wrote: post #134

308 points in 2 hours and 121 comments... and listed at #24. Ranked below stories like: 2. 121 points, 3 hours ago , 26 comments 3. 69 points , 2 hours ago , 22 comments 5. 138 points, 4 hours ago , 33 comments 8. 80 points , 4 hours ago , 28 comments 9. 46 points , 3 hours ago , 10 comments 10. 56 points , 3 hours ago , 19 comments Looks like it's being flagged left and right. Why? What if, instead of Charlie, it wa…

I'll upvote something that actually discusses how this effects our freedom rather than just some "let's all be upset". As far as I know western politicians have been far more effective at undermining our freedom and increasing extremism than the terrorists could ever have been on their own.
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