Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities • Hacker News Board

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#111

Post by korzun » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

rev_bird wrote: post #48

wheelzr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a direct response to De Blasio's asking police to implement Broken Windows policies. They are sending him the message they aren't taking his orders anymore.

Which, to me, is the scary part of this whole thing. Before, it was only implied that the police weren't accountable to anybody -- now they're literally turning their back on the head of the municipal government.

Police is still accountable and are doing their job. If anything the extra 'cash' they generated was a 'favor' to the said municipal government.

They are actually doing you a huge favor. No more bullshit tickets at the end of the month.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#112

Post by pyrophane » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:25 PM UTC

everyOtherTime wrote: post #64

pyrophane wrote: post #28

From the Times editorial board: > If the Police Department’s current commanders cannot get the cops to do their jobs, Mr. de Blasio should consider replacing them. > He should invite the Justice Department to determine if the police are guilty of civil rights violations in withdrawing policing from minority communities. > He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state…

...so, like, were you the kid in class who always reminded the teachers when they forgot to assign homework? After all, what this is really all about, is an attack aimed to reduce all the funds that those delicious, orange parking tickets generate. All the petty nuisance tickets, and summonses, and violations that harvest money from non-violent citizens, rather than produce burdens by incurring imprisonment costs. Yo…

While a lot of New Yorkers appreciate the reprieve from things like parking tickets, the lack of enforcement has real consequences that will negatively effect quality of life here. For example, without enforcement of the alternate side parking rule, street cleaners won't be able to access many city streets to clean them.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#113

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:27 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #17

Zigurd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

I generally agree with the sentiment that police are overbuying toys, but if there is any city where the police are justified in having that kind of stuff, it's New York. The terrorists are not going to attack St Louis Missouri, but they have attacked New York multiple times. I say this having just seen the NYPD bomb squad show up to investigate a bag outside my apartment this morning.

> The terrorists are not going to attack St Louis Missouri, but they have attacked New York multiple times.

Which of these attacks required armored cars to fend off?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#114

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:31 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #52

pyrophane wrote: post #28

From the Times editorial board: > If the Police Department’s current commanders cannot get the cops to do their jobs, Mr. de Blasio should consider replacing them. > He should invite the Justice Department to determine if the police are guilty of civil rights violations in withdrawing policing from minority communities. > He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state…

He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1ete2d/

> If they're not obligated to individuals, then screwups face internal discipline, whatever that might be, or (I think) criminal charges if they screw up very badly.

> If they were to be obligated to individuals, then the individuals could sue them for not performing their duty, because they failed in their duty to that individual. EDIT: In other words, it would become a private matter between the individual on the one hand and the police on the other.

> And as bad as the case in question was, I seriously doubt that adding literally millions of lawsuits to the criminal justice system (which is what would happen) would mean faster responses. It would, rather, mean more resources going to fighting lawsuits and paying when they're lost, and fewer resources left to actually respond to calls.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#115

Post by peterwwillis » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:32 PM UTC

uiberto wrote: post #79

angersock wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state laws. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

I have no legal training, but doesn't the ruling say police officers still have a duty to the public, just not to the individual?

Basically, yes. Ignore the public part; it just means they have a duty in general. A cop can watch you getting murdered in your house and they do not have to help you. The only exceptions for duty to an individual are the "danger creation exception" and the "special-relationship exception".

For 'danger creation exception', if the government doing or not doing something puts you in danger, they are liable. If you're already in danger it's not their fault.

For 'special relationship exception', basically, unless 'the government singles out a particular party [..] and affords that person special treatment', they have no liability to help that person or provide them proper services. The only exception to this is when the state has restricted the freedom of the individual, such as with prisoners.

This may be news to some of you, but that whole "I pay may taxes" line is ridiculous because of these conclusions. Yes you pay your taxes - to people who have no obligation to help you. You're welcome.

What's really odd about all this is the recent cases where someone who was handcuffed by police subsequently died. Technically this would fall under both these exceptions, because their freedom was restricted by the government and the police's action or inaction caused them danger. In the recent cases, though, the police were let off the hook. Weird.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#116

Post by bsg75 » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #10

morley wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess that there hasn't been enough time for people to realize their minor infractions will no longer get punished.

One of the people quoted in the article says "Of course that’s a good thing, because the traffic officers just want your money," he said on Tuesday morning in Queens. "Now I have the right to park a bit more." I suppose he still understands that he is not really supposed to park where he is parking, but it says something about his outlook.

> it says something about his outlook

Apparently he believes he has the "right" to park wherever he pleases.

We are left to wonder if he has the common sense to avoid blocking hydrants, etc.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#117

Post by tim333 » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

gharial wrote: post #29

I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were…

London on the whole gets by with a pretty light police presence. The police generally don't get involved with parking and most traffic violations - we have cameras and plenty of traffic wardens who put tickets on your window but can't arrest anyone. It seems to work quite well on average. Policing in the US kind of freaks me out.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#118

Post by jxm262 » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

pdabbadabba wrote: post #20

j_m_b wrote: post #7

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of peopl…

> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people. Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing. Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is…

This was a good comment that I can agree with. I'm also genuinely curious what the reaction/outcome would be if de Blasio would be less apologetic and slightly more confrontational with the Unions. Or even if the governor spoke out more.. Maybe confrontational is the wrong word, but rather something more "truthful" as your post is suggesting. I wonder what it actually takes to make a major cultural shift in the police force.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#119

Post by jkimmel » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #96

ams6110 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suspecting that it will eventually prove that those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. NYC in the '70s and '80s was not that safe. Street crime, muggings, etc. were common. In the 1990s Giuliani stepped up patrols and sarted enforcing what most people thought were petty crimes, such as loitering, graffiti, parking violations, subway-gate-jumping, etc. with the effect that more serious crimes als…

The "broken windows" theory of police enforcement doesn't stand up when compared to other Western cities. A big part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. And yet, if you visit Berlin, you will see a city with a shocking amount of graffiti, but very little crime. If you visit parts of London you'll see run down industrial dist…

>The USA had the most crime, and the USA has seen the biggest decrease. No one knows why.

Some have proposed that outlawing leaded gasoline has led to less lead poisoning in children, thus less aggressive behavior in adults and subsequent decreases in crime.

NBER paper - Environmental Policy as Social Policy? The Impact of Childhood Lead Exposure on Crime

[1] - http://www.nber.org/papers/w13097.pdf

MotherJones story

[2] - http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...

Links to criticism of the story above

[3] - http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/lead-and-crime...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#120

Post by saraid216 » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #96

ams6110 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm suspecting that it will eventually prove that those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. NYC in the '70s and '80s was not that safe. Street crime, muggings, etc. were common. In the 1990s Giuliani stepped up patrols and sarted enforcing what most people thought were petty crimes, such as loitering, graffiti, parking violations, subway-gate-jumping, etc. with the effect that more serious crimes als…

The "broken windows" theory of police enforcement doesn't stand up when compared to other Western cities. A big part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. And yet, if you visit Berlin, you will see a city with a shocking amount of graffiti, but very little crime. If you visit parts of London you'll see run down industrial dist…

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen.

I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the window. Full stop.