Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#71

Post by marrs » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33

tomp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I'm assuming there are many 10X programmers; unfortunately, there are not many 10X problems (or at least, not commercially viable ones - for example, I'm developing a programming language, but I don't see any chance of it being a commercial success, so I only do it in my free time).

In my case I doubt it's just about the type of a problem. I feel it's as much about the context. I apologize for the vagueness, those are all results of years of introspection of my work performance. Let's bring up recent web projects I've been doing. I'm working on an API-first system in PHP. Quite a chore, and most of the time I feel like running on 0.1X. Recently I had an opportunity to do a similar, smaller proje…

When I've been in this situation in the past it's because I've been in the wrong job. When you stop improving (your product, work environment, skill set, whatever), you stop caring.

Have you changed jobs much, is this a recurring problem?

I've worked with a lot of devs who haven't been able to settle because they're never satisfied with the status quo of the environment they land in. 6 months and they're onto the next thing. A lot of devs find their way into contracting that way.

I don't think this is an uncommon problem. A lot of (most?) devs suffer from the problem of not being challenged enough, and come up with elaborate ways to complicate projects by many orders of magnitude in order to get some excitement back.

For example, when you here a programmer say We need to rewrite this app because it's crap.

He means, I want to have a go at writing an app from scratch because the first 20% is always way more fun and creative than the last 80%.

    We'll do it in node and angular. It will be isomorphic and restful and awesome.

I'm bored of PHP and jQuery. I want to play with a new toy.

    We need to use Riak and EC2

I want to feel like I'm doing big data.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#72

Post by DougBTX » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #37

alkonaut wrote: post #29

A sports analogy appeared in yesterday's HN thread on this topic: the difference between an average runner and the fastest man alive is less than 50%. The counter argument here is that the measurable variable here isn't really the skill of the programmer but the success of the company (or equivalent). You only have to be best by a small margin to win. If you count wins between me and Usain Bolt he would be more than…

>> the difference between an average runner and the fastest man alive is less than 50%. So that means the average man can run the 100m in 15 seconds? It's a much better comparison to stretch that distance out. How fast (slow?) does your average human take to complete a marathon?

For track runners, 12-13 seems to be regarded as slowish, so 15 might not be too far off. http://training.fitness.com/interval-training/what-average-1...

Also note that the parent said "average runner" but you replied with "average man", most men are not "runners", so that is shifting the goals quite a bit.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#73

Post by aaronlevin » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:28 PM UTC

"He is..."

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#74

Post by kra34 » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:28 PM UTC

011110111111111 wrote: post #65

My theory is that most programmers are really bad at it. The 10x guys are the few who actually know what they are doing.

Yeah but nobody wants to hear or believe that to be true.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#75

Post by kra34 » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:33 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #68

10X programmers are what they are simply because they've already seen a similar problem before. The longer you're at the game, the more exposure you've had the bigger the chance that you'll be 10X as good at something as somebody else. Personally I don't think the 10X moniker is very useful. Imagine we'd be calling the marathon runners of the world 10X people. They may be a bit better at task 'X' (running a marathon)…

That's why all the best programmers are the oldest guys in the room, they've been at the game longest...

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#76

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:34 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #70

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case I doubt it's just about the type of a problem. I feel it's as much about the context. I apologize for the vagueness, those are all results of years of introspection of my work performance. Let's bring up recent web projects I've been doing. I'm working on an API-first system in PHP. Quite a chore, and most of the time I feel like running on 0.1X. Recently I had an opportunity to do a similar, smaller proje…

I wonder if a thoughtful manager can work with that... somehow structure your workplace to not trigger the ugh-obligation phenomenon. (Or at least creep back up to 1X-5X.)

Maybe. I'd love to think that.

I'm bit afraid to share that directly with my boss (though I hinted it at times). Both for obvious reasons, and because I don't feel I have quite figured out what's going on with my productivity.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#77

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 2:43 PM UTC

marrs wrote: post #71

TeMPOraL wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case I doubt it's just about the type of a problem. I feel it's as much about the context. I apologize for the vagueness, those are all results of years of introspection of my work performance. Let's bring up recent web projects I've been doing. I'm working on an API-first system in PHP. Quite a chore, and most of the time I feel like running on 0.1X. Recently I had an opportunity to do a similar, smaller proje…

When I've been in this situation in the past it's because I've been in the wrong job. When you stop improving (your product, work environment, skill set, whatever), you stop caring. Have you changed jobs much, is this a recurring problem? I've worked with a lot of devs who haven't been able to settle because they're never satisfied with the status quo of the environment they land in. 6 months and they're onto the nex…

> Have you changed jobs much, is this a recurring problem?

It's my third job so far, and it always is the same story. I quickly lose productivity and get frustrated by it, in a self-perpetuating cycle.

I also subcontracted once at another company, four weeks of fixing spaghetti PHP and JavaScript for a company that bought their system for cheap - and this was a very productive (5X+) and refreshing moment. I'm not sure what to attribute it to - the only thing that comes to my mind is clearly-defined and short (few hours tops) tickets to close, and zero personal responsibility for the project (i.e. of course I felt responsible, but it was my personal decision to care).

I shouldn't have trouble in changing jobs (I'm an experienced programmer after all), I usually worry only if I won't get fired in the first two weeks after the 0.1X mode kicks in. Anyway, while employed, low output keeps me in not good enough financial position to risk jumping (family to care about).

I agree with your sentiment about inventing challenges; I often feel that myself, and whenever I can I use the opportunity to learn something new while doing work tasks.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#78

Post by ehtd » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 3:00 PM UTC

My belief is that a 10x programmer is one that codes for fun and because of that, has tackled a lot of different problems.

Problems solved for "fun" are very different from day job problems, but they often provide knowledge that can be applied.

It the extra knowledge what makes them great.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#79

Post by rhino369 » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

devanti wrote: post #3

There are 10X programmers. I'll give an example. If you take an average programmer and "the best of the best" and ask them to build a relatively complex iOS app, of which neither has previous iOS experience, the best programmers WILL finish the task up to 10x faster than the average. This is because the average programmer gets stuck on bugs, solving problems, complexity, and is slower at learning new things. The bett…

The problem with the 10X label is that it models the productivity as linear relationship, when it's not, as you allude to.

A bad programmer can do simple tasks nearly as fast as a good programmer.

But at a higher level of difficulty that difference might be 10X. Hell, it might even be infinite.

For example, the best NFL QBs will win 10X as many games as the 3rd string backups. But you wouldn't call them 10X better. In fact they are probably only 10% worse than the elite QBs in their completition percentage.

Or if you raised the height of the hurdles 4 inches in hurdle racing, some of the racers wouldn't be able to jump over it any longer.

Re: Another Theory to Explain 10X Programmers

#80

Post by dangerlibrary » Mon, Jan 05, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

ehtd wrote: post #78

My belief is that a 10x programmer is one that codes for fun and because of that, has tackled a lot of different problems. Problems solved for "fun" are very different from day job problems, but they often provide knowledge that can be applied. It the extra knowledge what makes them great.

That is not incompatible with the point made in the article.

It is also a much stronger claim. Your claim is that the ONLY way to acquire the wide range skills is to program for fun. Such a strong claim generally requires greater justification, which you haven't provided.