Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#141

Post by shawndumas » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:17 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #119

shawndumas wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for the sake of argument let's assume there is a God. and let's say He was better than all the things He created. better than that awesome sunset that you saw that took your breath away; better than that favorite meal you love -- you know the one. love is giving the object of your love the best... the best you've got. what if God giving Himself was Love defined? just for argument's sake...

That's a bad assumption to start with because there is no evidence of such a thing. "just for the sake of argument, let's assume there are invisible horses everywhere. (followed by explanation of how these horses are responsible for love)"

a valid argument is valid apart from the truth of its premises [1]. I am perfectly happy to agree that an argument's construction is formally valid and still deny it's conclusion.

all sound arguments are valid but not all valid arguments are sound.

so I ask; in what way is my argument invalid?

-----

[1]: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity#Validity_and_soundne...

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#142

Post by anglican1549 » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:21 AM UTC

axotty wrote: post #93

vladtaltos wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're supposed to 'believe' to benefit from the best case scenario dude :) just rationalizing about it is not supposed to be enough... and additionally, fasting was around before it was introduced in islam; check it's versions in judaism, christianity... actually, it was also around before that. people used to fast during equinoxes for a very long time for all sorts of different ceremonies...

If God exists, I doubt he cares if we beleive in him or not. I like to beleive he would not be that insecure.

Why does insecurity come into play? Couldn't there be other reasons for God being adamant about what a person believes (i.e., worships)? What if man's nature really is best nurtured by and finds its completion in (his telos) the Being called God?

If your kids insist on eating cotton candy (which works against their health) amid a veritable feast (that is delightful and nutritious), wouldn't your ire be justified?

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#143

Post by fady » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:24 AM UTC

keenerd wrote: post #139

fady wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i agree and mention that. i just did not want to fast without protein and other essential vitamins hence the idea to try it. i should have documented it more with vids, etc. maybe it was the sodium?

I'm talking about the side effects of eating 2000 kcals of it a day. The quantities you were doing (150 kcals?) probably don't have those issues.

yeah 150-300 kcals max.

edit: wanted to add/clarify that some days i only took half of what i planned..was not hungry. my friend said i need to eat 3000 kcals of it..i said no, as i'm just going to get an athletes dose of it. the bet was to show you could function normal with averages+ doses.

also don't drink it/ add the spirulina powder to a smoothie..the taste is very acquired...its not terrible but easier to swallow tablets.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#144

Post by Dn_Ab » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:26 AM UTC

reasonattlm wrote: post #32

Better publicity materials: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-06/uosc-fts06021... The paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.stem.2014.04.014 Really it's just not worth even reading whatever the popular press has to say about a particular strand of research, especially when lines like "regenerate the entire immune system" are thrown around. No, no, no. Not what is happening: read the paper or even just the publ…

I do not think the manner in which you've apportioned blame is correct. The article is less technical than the press release yes, but the core of both remains the same. They both talk about fasting leading to a depletion of white blood cells, triggering "stem cell-based regeneration" of new immune cells and how this may prove useful when treating cancer patients.

The main difference in the two is that the press release does not use the word 'entire' in its headline and the regeneration aspect was only specified for mice. But, and this is important, the press release does not make particularly clear whether the regenerative aspect was also looked for in humans (was it? the quote makes it seem so). I do not blame the likely time starved writer for not bothering with nuance if the press release itself doesn't take the time to be clear. The news article is also better for its attempt at sampling more skeptical views, most 'reporting' does not go that far.

A lot of (most?) science reporting is just regurgitating press releases, if science reporting is poor then press releases can explain the bulk of that shoddy reporting. The game of telephone aspect of paper to blogs can't be avoided so it pays to take a much more sober approach when writing press releases:

40% (95% confidence interval 33% to 46%) of the press releases contained exaggerated advice, 33% (26% to 40%) contained exaggerated causal claims, and 36% (28% to 46%) contained exaggerated inference to humans from animal research. When press releases contained such exaggeration, 58% (95% confidence interval 48% to 68%), 81% (70% to 93%), and 86% (77% to 95%) of news stories, respectively, contained similar exaggeration, compared with exaggeration rates of 17% (10% to 24%), 18% (9% to 27%), and 10% (0% to 19%) in news when the press releases were not exaggerated

-- http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g7015

Good science reporting on: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/12/09/the-power...

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#145

Post by yourapostasy » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:44 AM UTC

ruben94 wrote: post #79

that means no water too ?

Usually a fast means you can drink non-caloric liquids, water being the preference. There are many different kinds of fasts, and some are less strict than others, but for the most part water is allowed in all of them.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#146

Post by danieltillett » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:53 AM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #95

danieltillett wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are Christians in the same sense as Moslems are.

Unless Muslims believe in Jesus as deity (and salvation through Christ's atonement) as Mormons do, that seems an unlikely statement. Mormons do get drawn outside of Christianity by some christians for a variety of reasons (non-trinitarian, open canon, cosmological background quasi-polytheism), and some people have suggested classifying the faith as another Abrahamic one as a means of sidestepping that discussion, whi…

The point I was making is that both Islam and Mormonism are based on Christianity and so share many common beliefs, but they both extend on this base. Personally I find Mormonism a fascinating religion, but I do think it has moved past being just another branch of Christianity.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#147

Post by beagle3 » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 2:57 AM UTC

knappador wrote: post #140

The word "regenerate" has got to be a bit of a stretch. It's not like decades of DNA mutations are going away. I've done fasts on relatively nothing for over five days. Early on, you get some "empty-stomach intelligence" where your mind is just more alert because of plenty of oxygen (from not digesting) and probably some evolution that favored apes that got observant and driven when hungry as opposed to lazy. Fasting…

> basically you want to have a small supply of starches to keep your skeletal muscle from breaking down to feed your brain

But starvation in a healthy person takes 10-40 days to kick in, with 30 days being way more common than 10. Before that, you're just ketogenic.

Everything I read, and my personal experience, leads me to believe that the only muscle that breaks down is that which is not used (which is compatible with your general description). As long as you keep exercising during the fasting days, there's no reason to resupply your glycogen stores. After about two days, your body will switch to ketones as a fuel source, which will likely alter your body odour and -- if you are not used to it, e.g. the first time you do it, is likely to give you headaches and other flu like symptoms for a couple of days. But no reason for starch intake.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#148

Post by rasz_pl » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 3:09 AM UTC

bicknergseng wrote: post #49

>>But I think the most sensible way forward would be to synthesize this effect with drugs. I'm no naturopath, but something about this attitude really bugs me. I know in context he was cautioning against jumping to conclusions, but if there was a safe, low barrier to entry, non-drug way of achieving an effect, why would you encourage people to take a drug instead?

>>I'm no naturopath, but something about this attitude really bugs me.

compare profit margin of magic pill versus telling someone to make a concious effort for few days

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#149

Post by axotty » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 3:12 AM UTC

anglican1549 wrote: post #142

axotty wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If God exists, I doubt he cares if we beleive in him or not. I like to beleive he would not be that insecure.

Why does insecurity come into play? Couldn't there be other reasons for God being adamant about what a person believes (i.e., worships)? What if man's nature really is best nurtured by and finds its completion in (his telos ) the Being called God? If your kids insist on eating cotton candy (which works against their health) amid a veritable feast (that is delightful and nutritious), wouldn't your ire be justified?

Disclaimer: This is my personal belief, it seems it seems to offended some passionate dissenters. I understand, I've been there before too.

God is often depicted as moody and chronically concerned with what we think of him. I think that's a ridiculous projection of our own human insecurities.

If a creator like God existed, he would be billions of orders of magnitude more intelligent than us. Why would he care if we were skeptical? Humans are arrogant and we project our own humanness onto everything. I doubt God, if he existed, would stop loving me even if I hated him. He would be above all that, in my view.

If there is a creator or God, I personally believe he doesn't care if we believe in him. He's too intelligent and mature for that to ever matter to him

Side note edit: It has always been interesting to me that moderate agnosticism is always the most drowned out religious view. I would be better off as a militant atheist or familiar, friendly theist if I cared about internet points.

Re: Fasting triggers stem cell regeneration of damaged, old immune system (2014)

#150

Post by beagle3 » Sun, Jan 04, 2015, 3:13 AM UTC

blazespin wrote: post #76

bicknergseng wrote: post #49

>>But I think the most sensible way forward would be to synthesize this effect with drugs. I'm no naturopath, but something about this attitude really bugs me. I know in context he was cautioning against jumping to conclusions, but if there was a safe, low barrier to entry, non-drug way of achieving an effect, why would you encourage people to take a drug instead?

Low barrier ? How often have you fasted for the days?

Very low barrier. Once every couple of years (For the 20 or so).

The first two days the first time you do it are a not comfortable. But other than that, it's no big deal - around the beginning of the 3rd day, you just lose your appetite and food is not appealing anymore for a while.

It only seems like insurmountable because, if the discomfort you feel for a few hours of unsatisfied appetite continued similarly (linearly, parabolically, exponentially - whichever way it feels to you), then it would actually have been insurmountable. But that's not the case.

It's like cold showers - a guy on this board, joel_runyon, advocates 40 days of only-cold showers[1] as, if I understand it correctly, part-physical-part-psychological therapy. Regardless of any specific merits, the only possible cost is a slight discomfort - yet it seems insurmountable to some people.

[1] http://impossiblehq.com/cold-showers-excuses