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Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

blogs.law.harvard.edu

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Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#111

Post by ky3 »

dang wrote: post #96

HN has recently had multiple extensive threads about PG's immigration essay and the questions raised by it. In such cases, we demote follow-up posts as duplicates unless they contain significant new information. Please note that this criterion depends neither on what the particular topic is, nor the opinions people express, nor who they agree or disagree with. It has to do with avoiding repetition. The reason for thi…

fail to gratify intellectual curiosity

At stake here are the 2 functions that HN serves: 1. a front page for the HN readership, and 2. an electronic town-hall.

Consider that the town-hall service to the community is how HN got where it did today.

It's one thing to rein in repetitious bunkum, it's quite another for the Chair to say, "bah, I find this so boring" if you allow me caricaturizing license.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#112

Post by dennisgorelik »

Philip Greenspun forgot to mention that if immigration restrictions persist, then potential immigrants who cannot enter the US due to immigration restrictions would make less than they would do in the US.

Is that discrimination against potential immigrants fair?

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#113

Post by rmc »

abalone wrote: post #52
patio11 wrote: post #15

I think the subtext of "I would hire thirty great programmers tomorrow!" is "I would hire thirty great programmers tomorrow! They just need to think 55 hours a week is a nice relaxing pace, have impeccable pedigrees, and be capable of spinning up within single-digit weeks. Also, we're looking for top-of-the-skill-curve at a combination of five technologies, two of which are fairly niche. For a variety of reasons we'd…

It seems highly improbable that cash-based Wall Street compensation packages could be offered by Silicon Valley startups. Maybe established companies could, but it would massively increase the fundraising requirements for early stage companies, with probably bad effects on the SV ecosystem. Perhaps you can argue that startup equity grants should be higher. Would hiring issues be resolved if the average equity grant t…

> Maybe established companies could, but it would massively increase the fundraising requirements for early stage companies, with probably bad effects on the SV ecosystem.

Welcome to running a business. You aren't guaranteed anything. If you can't survive, you die. Tough. That's life.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#114

Post by ky3 »

gaius wrote: post #46
hkarthik wrote: post #36

Hypothetically, let's say every YC startup was to double the starting salaries for programmers they hired. So if they are paying $120K-$150K/year, they start paying $240K-$300K/year. At that salary, programmers are getting paid on par with lawyers, doctors, and bankers. To pay this much, assume every startup needs to raise double or triple the amount of capital. The $1 million angel round becomes a $3 million VC roun…

I'm really sad that John Doerr won't make another billion dollars. Oh wait, no I'm not. You see, it won't change a thing. In the current low-interest-rate environment there is nowhere else for the money to go . VCs and startups could pay engineers fairly (i.e. at the price at which the market clears) without breaking a sweat. They just don't, out of naked greed. Except now they're running out of people naive enough t…

startups could pay engineers fairly .... They just don't, out of naked greed.

Also that idle hands are the devil's workshop.

There's a fiduciary duty to channel disruption where it is due, while at the same time stabilizing the polity elsewhere.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#115

Post by dang »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #108
dang wrote: post #96

HN has recently had multiple extensive threads about PG's immigration essay and the questions raised by it. In such cases, we demote follow-up posts as duplicates unless they contain significant new information. Please note that this criterion depends neither on what the particular topic is, nor the opinions people express, nor who they agree or disagree with. It has to do with avoiding repetition. The reason for thi…

PG says this issue is crucial to the very future of America. So it's only worth one day of discussion?

It's had several days of discussion and another big discussion today.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#116

Post by dang »

ky3 wrote: post #111
dang wrote: post #96

HN has recently had multiple extensive threads about PG's immigration essay and the questions raised by it. In such cases, we demote follow-up posts as duplicates unless they contain significant new information. Please note that this criterion depends neither on what the particular topic is, nor the opinions people express, nor who they agree or disagree with. It has to do with avoiding repetition. The reason for thi…

fail to gratify intellectual curiosity At stake here are the 2 functions that HN serves: 1. a front page for the HN readership, and 2. an electronic town-hall. Consider that the town-hall service to the community is how HN got where it did today. It's one thing to rein in repetitious bunkum, it's quite another for the Chair to say, "bah, I find this so boring" if you allow me caricaturizing license.

The only part of this that I really disagree with is the "At stake here". That suggests that there's some danger of destroying one of those things, as if we're unaware of or don't value it. But of course we do. There's no question of suppressing discussion or of thwarting the community from talking about something that it cares about. The issue is one of balance, and it's a purely pragmatic one. If someone can suggest a better way, we're all ears.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#117

Post by abalone »

hawkice wrote: post #110
abalone wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinterest is waaay beyond the early stages of startups that Paul Graham focuses on. It used to be that it did in fact take millions of VC just to get startups off the ground (70s, 80s, 90s). We could go back there. Would it be better for the ecosystem? Would employees have a net gain, or would there be fewer early stage companies & jobs? I don't know, but these are the macroeconomic questions to consider.

The impact would be reasonably small, depending on which sub-slice of the startup ecosystem you are looking at. Paul Graham doesn't advocate jacking up headcount before you have decently functional business fundamentals. The YC model seems to be that (before the product is proven out) development is done by founders, which costs the same no matter what the prevailing wages are. After that, it's either (1) paid by rev…

I don't think pg says it's founders-only until you prove product-market fit. Usually it takes some hires and seed funding to run some experiments and show proof. Product-market fit is more of a Series A requirement.

If the cash cost of running experiments goes way up, that may very well mean going back to the old way of doing things, where you essentially had to jump straight to VC money just to get off the ground.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#118

Post by ky3 »

dang wrote: post #116
ky3 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fail to gratify intellectual curiosity At stake here are the 2 functions that HN serves: 1. a front page for the HN readership, and 2. an electronic town-hall. Consider that the town-hall service to the community is how HN got where it did today. It's one thing to rein in repetitious bunkum, it's quite another for the Chair to say, "bah, I find this so boring" if you allow me caricaturizing license.

The only part of this that I really disagree with is the "At stake here". That suggests that there's some danger of destroying one of those things, as if we're unaware of or don't value it. But of course we do. There's no question of suppressing discussion or of thwarting the community from talking about something that it cares about. The issue is one of balance, and it's a purely pragmatic one. If someone can sugges…

The "At stake here" borrows from judicial writing, where disinterested parties offer an analysis that would cut the gordion knot of obscuring details. It's short for, "This is really what the debate is about, isn't it?"

From your comment, I gather that HN moderators feel a bit high-strung over the faintest accusation of censorship.

At stake here, I suppose, is PG's reputation, which I'm generally indifferent about. An upstanding citizen of the tech community he is, nothing less, nothing more.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#119

Post by tsax »

mgkimsal wrote: post #69
abalone wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems highly improbable that cash-based Wall Street compensation packages could be offered by Silicon Valley startups. Maybe established companies could, but it would massively increase the fundraising requirements for early stage companies, with probably bad effects on the SV ecosystem. Perhaps you can argue that startup equity grants should be higher. Would hiring issues be resolved if the average equity grant t…

> It seems highly improbable that cash-based Wall Street compensation packages could be offered by Silicon Valley startups. Maybe this would force VC companies to be more selective in who they fund, vs "fund 100 and hope for 1 to be the next google".

The very reason they fund 100 and hope for 1 is that all the analysis and data in the world have not helped narrow likely success criteria beyond 'fund the team.' What's stopping you from starting a VC fund that's REALLY CAREFUL with investments?
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