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Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

blogs.law.harvard.edu

11–20 of 119 posts

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#11
What if the qualities that make a drug dealer are economic, but the qualities that make a GREAT drug dealer may be a mix of environment and genes?

If you want the most amazing, ruthless, and efficient black market for drugs, you must have the largest possible number of drug dealers participating in the system, so the most talented and motivated drug dealers have the opportunity to be the best they can be.

The author of this post is missing some of Graham's core arguments, and it makes me want to go back and reread the original essay. Perhaps it is PG's fault for conflating concepts, as people seem to be raising valid points (startups should be able to hire great programmers if they would just pay more) while missing that the core thesis is undeniable: if there are more programmers participating, more greatness will emerge.

It is probably not even linear. If you track the history of martial arts proficiency, the ones that are in fashion seem to produce a higher overall average of ability, with the "greats" in that martial art always arising when many many people are participating in that art, and there is a rich ecosystem that supports learning and competition. i.e. Judo in the 1970s, or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in the early 2000s.

I see this anecdotally and in published research, where pockets of artists, writers, and musicians have created a wildly disproportionate amount of forward looking work when there are many of them in the same area creating all at once.

Even if startups paid more, it would not significantly increase the total number of great programmers. Google, Apple, and Facebook already DO pay "more" and I think these companies are in exactly the same boat as the startup in the essay - they would happily keep hiring as many great programmers as they can find.

If that is true, the number of jobs available to great programmers is not proved to be finite.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#14

How about "raises to increase the supply of programmers" instead?

Exactly. I'm really confused about this situation of VCs having their cake, and eating it too. Why and when did we just stat accepting the assumption that these companies and VCs are entitled to as many "superstar" programmers as they want at the salaries that they want?

I've been arguing for 10 years that AMA needs to increase the supply of doctors in this country. I'm of the opinion we don't have a lot of doctors... if we had more, then in certain contexts healthcare would become a competitive field where the patient wins. That hasn't happened. And that's an area where we do definitely want change, because healthcare is a serious issue. Tech industry has not produced, in my opinion, anything extraordinarily remarkable that truly helps people in substantive ways. Indeed, the highlight of the industry is massive wealth by the VCs and founders by duping customers by way of exploiting their cognitive biases (or "advertising", if you would). If they were doing things in a clean way that actually benefited the customer without emptying his or her wallet, I would maybe be sympathetic to their cries for getting top talent. But after all of that colluding to suppress the wages of the very people they want more of? Wow, the balls that they have.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#15
I think the subtext of "I would hire thirty great programmers tomorrow!" is "I would hire thirty great programmers tomorrow! They just need to think 55 hours a week is a nice relaxing pace, have impeccable pedigrees, and be capable of spinning up within single-digit weeks. Also, we're looking for top-of-the-skill-curve at a combination of five technologies, two of which are fairly niche. For a variety of reasons we'd strongly prefer if they were located in one particular geographic area where we happen to be in vicious, frothy competition with a hundred firms trying to hire exactly this profile of people."

This happens to be very similar to the rough description that Wall Street is looking for in certain niches of programmers. I have not heard Wall Street loudly complaining about the impossibility of finding Haskell programmers who can code against FIX and also have PhDs in physics.

I rather strongly believe this is because Wall Street institutionally believes in market prices and, unlike Silicon Valley, is willing to tolerate the market telling them that the market clearing price for hiring this type of programmer times thirty is $200k base plus a $600k bonus as opposed to $120k base plus an equity grant with expected value in the $X0k range.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#16
post #2

And why should we artificially restrict the supply of immigrants? It's not like it's a zero-sum game, something that Greenspun ought to realize. http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs...

It is not zero-sum ? companies like Google, Facebook pick 1 out of 100 programmers, if there was 10 fold increase in programmers, they would start picking 1 out of 1000. Instead of complaining shortage of programmer it makes sense to build software development processes around "average" programmers rather than insisting on superstar programmers. How many other fields do that ? Have you read an ad about hiring only su…

> Instead of complaining shortage of programmer it makes sense to build software development processes around "average" programmers

I tried to explain this to a manager: instead of trying to find a developer with perfect skills, get a junior one and train him.

There is no shortage of developers, but there is definitely a shortage of senior developers with (quoting one of the emails i get weekly):

5+ years of experience in the following skill sets... Web-Based C# / ASP.NET 3.5 / 4.0 Development – Design / Development / Implementation MVC Design Pattern Object-Relational Mapping (ORM) Framework – Entity Framework WebServices / SOAP / XML WCF – Windows Communication Foundation SQL Server 2005 / 2008 – T-SQL / Database Design Frameworks

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#17

What if the qualities that make a drug dealer are economic, but the qualities that make a GREAT drug dealer may be a mix of environment and genes? If you want the most amazing, ruthless, and efficient black market for drugs, you must have the largest possible number of drug dealers participating in the system, so the most talented and motivated drug dealers have the opportunity to be the best they can be. The author…

What makes a great programmer? And what does this great programmers do? We have had and still have a vast number of great programmers in US and churning our more and more, but what do they do? is it greatness that they seek? if so, why are more programmers involved in scientific research? I really want to agree with your views, but for now it seems that immigration is an issue for one market sector, and last time I looked, that market sector isn't out to change the world.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#18
post #10

Maybe what we really need is an increase in VC's? Possibly grant resident status to anyone (with lot of money of course... after all, it's only the exceptional we are talking about here) who wants to fund and run a VC company? Because there are lots of great programmers who simply can't get funding. I wonder how PG would feel about that?

> Possibly grant resident status to anyone (with lot of money of course... after all, it's only the exceptional we are talking about here) who wants to fund and run a VC company? Because there are lots of great programmers who simply can't get funding.

That already exists in various forms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-2_visa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa

I don't think PG would have any problems with that, because investing in startups is not a zero-sum game, which is one of the reasons why there are so many investors in the bay area. It's not like they seek out "investor free" territory, such as eastern Montana.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not zero-sum ? companies like Google, Facebook pick 1 out of 100 programmers, if there was 10 fold increase in programmers, they would start picking 1 out of 1000. Instead of complaining shortage of programmer it makes sense to build software development processes around "average" programmers rather than insisting on superstar programmers. How many other fields do that ? Have you read an ad about hiring only su…

Angie's List does explicitly that, showing you superstar plumbers, electricians, doctors, etc. If I am given the choice to hire a great plumber vs. an average plumber I would always hire a great plumber if I can afford him. Your argument that development processes should be built around average programmers is like saying open heart surgical procedures should be designed around average surgeons.

We humans are greedy species. If given opportunity we would always hire superstar (even janitors or hamburger flippers) especially if they don't cost any extra. If you can find superstar, great! but stop crying "shortage" if you are not in the business of open heart surgery.

EDIT: And yes every average heart surgeon is capable of doing heart surgery otherwise they would not get a degree in the first place. There is no such thing as 10x heart surgeon.

Re: Immigration to increase the supply of programmers

#20
post #2

And why should we artificially restrict the supply of immigrants? It's not like it's a zero-sum game, something that Greenspun ought to realize. http://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs...

It is not zero-sum ? companies like Google, Facebook pick 1 out of 100 programmers, if there was 10 fold increase in programmers, they would start picking 1 out of 1000. Instead of complaining shortage of programmer it makes sense to build software development processes around "average" programmers rather than insisting on superstar programmers. How many other fields do that ? Have you read an ad about hiring only su…

Having average programmers is possible, but it does two things. Features are added more slowely (sometimes half the rate) and management/architectural overhead has to be much higher as well. Personally I wish that I was working with better devs even if I would appear less exceptional; just so that I could learn a lot more from them and would have to do less refactoring of their existing code
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