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Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

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Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#11

Post by blackbook »

swatow wrote: post #3

Funny, I once asked the same question about pure mathematics, and got similar answers. In the end I decided pure math wasn't the best bang for buck in terms of benefit to humanity, and decided to work on other things. When it comes to Haskell, there is a big problem that the people best qualified to speak on the matter have invested a lot of time in Haskell, and therefore are subject to biases associated with their i…

I am confused. If you feel there are much better languages than Haskell, how would Haskell be the "theoretically most advanced language"?

As far as what I have learned and how I have been studying, I did try "Learn You a Haskell" but found its explanations inadequate and sometimes confusing. Searching the web, I find a number of people feeling the same. Meanwhile, I find a large number of people agreeing with your experience the text is the best introduction. I think the fact the supposed best text is utterly failing a sizable number of people also suggests how worthwhile Haskell might be.

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#12

Post by blackbook »

gaius wrote: post #10
blackbook wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are you saying there are no tangible benefits?

Not at all, there are loads, see for example http://donsbot.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/semicolon.pdf What I'm saying is, don't let a minority of the community put you off. The "conventional wisdom" on how to learn Haskell, is wrong.

Thanks for the link. I see 5 benefits listed. Concise code; native code optimization (LLVM) and compilation; parallel and concurrent runtime; debuggers, profiling tools, refactoring, coverage, testing tools; library support, distribution mechanisms. With the exception of concise code, however, I think I get the rest with a combination of clang and a good static analyzer, no?

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#13

Post by dragonwriter »

blackbook wrote: post #11
swatow wrote: post #3

Funny, I once asked the same question about pure mathematics, and got similar answers. In the end I decided pure math wasn't the best bang for buck in terms of benefit to humanity, and decided to work on other things. When it comes to Haskell, there is a big problem that the people best qualified to speak on the matter have invested a lot of time in Haskell, and therefore are subject to biases associated with their i…

I am confused. If you feel there are much better languages than Haskell, how would Haskell be the "theoretically most advanced language"? As far as what I have learned and how I have been studying, I did try "Learn You a Haskell" but found its explanations inadequate and sometimes confusing. Searching the web, I find a number of people feeling the same. Meanwhile, I find a large number of people agreeing with your ex…

> I think the fact the supposed best text is utterly failing a sizable number of people also suggests how worthwhile Haskell might be.

I think it says a lot more about the fact that learning (and, therefore, the best text for learning) is highly subjective than it does about the worth of Haskell.

I mean, how does the logic even work that leads from "some people think that this text is good for learning about X but I find it is 'inadequate and sometimes confusing' to me" to "X isn't generally worthwhile" even work?

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#14

Post by gaius »

blackbook wrote: post #12
gaius wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, there are loads, see for example http://donsbot.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/semicolon.pdf What I'm saying is, don't let a minority of the community put you off. The "conventional wisdom" on how to learn Haskell, is wrong.

Thanks for the link. I see 5 benefits listed. Concise code; native code optimization (LLVM) and compilation; parallel and concurrent runtime; debuggers, profiling tools, refactoring, coverage, testing tools; library support, distribution mechanisms. With the exception of concise code, however, I think I get the rest with a combination of clang and a good static analyzer, no?

What's your static analyzer? It's probably written in OCaml, which some call the "practical Haskell".

https://github.com/facebook/pfff/wiki/Main

http://frama-c.com/

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#15

Post by shepardrtc »

blackbook wrote: post #11
swatow wrote: post #3

Funny, I once asked the same question about pure mathematics, and got similar answers. In the end I decided pure math wasn't the best bang for buck in terms of benefit to humanity, and decided to work on other things. When it comes to Haskell, there is a big problem that the people best qualified to speak on the matter have invested a lot of time in Haskell, and therefore are subject to biases associated with their i…

I am confused. If you feel there are much better languages than Haskell, how would Haskell be the "theoretically most advanced language"? As far as what I have learned and how I have been studying, I did try "Learn You a Haskell" but found its explanations inadequate and sometimes confusing. Searching the web, I find a number of people feeling the same. Meanwhile, I find a large number of people agreeing with your ex…

I actually found LYAH to be really good. I picked up on the basics of Haskell very quickly with it.

If you're comparing your progress to some of the more advanced programs out there, you'll certainly get demoralized. But if you're having trouble with just the stuff in LYAH, then maybe Haskell isn't your thing? 6 months is a good long time to spend on learning something, so I'm pretty sure your gut instinct knows what's best for you.

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#16

Post by [deleted] »

swatow wrote: post #3

Funny, I once asked the same question about pure mathematics, and got similar answers. In the end I decided pure math wasn't the best bang for buck in terms of benefit to humanity, and decided to work on other things. When it comes to Haskell, there is a big problem that the people best qualified to speak on the matter have invested a lot of time in Haskell, and therefore are subject to biases associated with their i…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#17

Post by blackbook »

gaius wrote: post #14
blackbook wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. I see 5 benefits listed. Concise code; native code optimization (LLVM) and compilation; parallel and concurrent runtime; debuggers, profiling tools, refactoring, coverage, testing tools; library support, distribution mechanisms. With the exception of concise code, however, I think I get the rest with a combination of clang and a good static analyzer, no?

What's your static analyzer? It's probably written in OCaml, which some call the "practical Haskell". https://github.com/facebook/pfff/wiki/Main http://frama-c.com/

PC-lint. It has served me well.

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#18

Post by blackbook »

dragonwriter wrote: post #13
blackbook wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused. If you feel there are much better languages than Haskell, how would Haskell be the "theoretically most advanced language"? As far as what I have learned and how I have been studying, I did try "Learn You a Haskell" but found its explanations inadequate and sometimes confusing. Searching the web, I find a number of people feeling the same. Meanwhile, I find a large number of people agreeing with your ex…

> I think the fact the supposed best text is utterly failing a sizable number of people also suggests how worthwhile Haskell might be. I think it says a lot more about the fact that learning (and, therefore, the best text for learning) is highly subjective than it does about the worth of Haskell. I mean, how does the logic even work that leads from "some people think that this text is good for learning about X but I…

> I mean, how does the logic even work that leads from "some people think that this text is good for learning about X but I find it is 'inadequate and sometimes confusing' to me" to "X isn't generally worthwhile" even work?

I'm pretty sure I did not make that particular claim. I have trouble learning from the supposed best text; others have trouble learning from the supposed best text; asking questions gets me treated with hostility and non-helpfulness. I want to know what I am going to get out of learning the language if I put additional time into it. If I am not going to get any more from Haskell beyond (a) what I already know in C/C++ and (b) the ability to put Haskell on a resume, the question of cost/benefit analysis arises quite quickly.

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#19

Post by yomritoyj »

blackbook wrote: post #9
yomritoyj wrote: post #5

To me the value of Haskell comes from its being an extreme point in the language design space: that of a pure, lazy, strictly-typed language. I think that Haskell provides a very nice syntax and GHC a very nice implementation for exploring this extreme point. The primary benefit of this exploration is that it enriches our understanding as a community regarding language design and program design. I think that is a wor…

So, the only tangible benefit you see is "it enriches our understanding as a community regarding language design and program design"? To be clear, when you say, "I think that is a worthwhile enough contribution," are you saying this benefit of enrichment is "worthwhile enough" to warrant learning it?

Yes to the first. For the second, it is worthwhile enough for some people and I think it is a net benefit to society. Whether it is worth your time depends on your tastes and priorities.

Re: Ask HN: What are specific tangible benefits of learning Haskell?

#20

Post by tome »

blackbook wrote: post #7
tome wrote: post #4

I don't think HN is the best forum for this kind of question.

Where would you suggest I ask?

I think somewhere where more people interested in teaching Haskell hang out. The haskell-beginners mailing list and the #haskell-beginners channel on Freenode spring to mind, but I am not a member of either so if you take that option please pay attention to whatever the particular ettiquette is there! I'm not personally sure what it is for either of those places.
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