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What Do We Want, Really?

thefrailestthing.com

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Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#51
post #11

Amish are very nice people, warm, friendly and with strong convictions. I was lucky to have been invited once to share a day with them (a visited a community in Ohio, had dinner, talked to them). But nevertheless ,the whole "no electricity" thing is crazy. Depending on the area there are workshops devoted in converting electrical appliances to pneumatic power. Yes they take things like blenders, food processors, pull…

>There is not logic or careful analysis of "advantages of electricity vs disadvantages" it is plain silly.

I disagree. The Amish are engaged in a constant, ongoing negotiation with the technological world, and pneumatic power is one of many remarkably clever compromises.

Using "Amish electricity" provides you with the labour-saving benefits of domestic appliances, but without the temptation of entertainment technologies like TV that the Amish see as a threat to family life. Pneumatic power serves their social goals more effectively than electricity; It is very good at providing useful work, and very poor at providing idle distraction.

Many Amish people now have mobile phones, but they are kept in a shed some distance from the house so that they are only used when absolutely necessary rather than being a constant distraction. It is common for Amish communities to use non-Amish drivers to transport groups of them to work by van, which provides the economic benefits of commuting while avoiding many of the negative effects that private car ownership would have on community life.

>Think about the brainpower and time spent into doing that.

For the Amish, that's the whole point. They're not anti-technology, but they believe in engaging with technology on their own terms, in a careful and planned manner. Many of the prohibitions and taboos that seem arbitrary are arbitrary like a speed bump - they're designed to slow down the rate of progress and force you to think about what you're doing. These social constraints are a countervailing force to the natural tendency Schamus describes towards the easy and self-indulgent path.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#52
Want? Really?

We want a solution to the fundamental problem of life, that is, doing something effective about feeling alone.

Or, one step deeper, we seek security from the anxiety from our realization that alone we are vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature and society.

Only four solutions have been found effective, love of spouse, love of God, membership in a group, and one more not recommended.

Paraphrased from E. Fromm, 'The Art of Loving'.

Simple enough.

Bet the Amish do relatively well on the above.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#53
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.

Western culture has relative "material prosperity" because our ancestors invaded all the other places on earth and fucked them up. See: Africa, the Middle East. In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Before you look down on the rest of the planet, consider that Europe is one of the best places to survive on earth. It's temperate, it's fertile, it rains a lot, it's ge…

In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well.

Americans occupied Japan for years, not to mention first destroying her military, and razing a few cities with fire bombs and then nukes. Mongolia's GDP (PPP) per capita is less than $10k. On average, a Mongolian is four times poorer than a French. The same is true for Russia which has immense natural resources, dwarfing those of Europe. Their ability to manipulate natural gas supplies hangs over the EU to this day. Soviets used to control what was once the breadbasket of Europe. Didn't do them much good. Actually, they managed to induce a famine there.

Europe is rich because of industrial revolution and stable governments (more stable than elsewhere anyway). Invading other places was largely made possible by the technological advances rather than causing them. Before, Europe was nearly conquered by Muslisms[1]. Twice[2]. It was regularly raided for slaves (in 16-17th century[3], no ancient history), and starved of precious metals for much of its history.

What kind of prosperity is that?

The kind billions of people living in poverty today would take in heartbeat. They do whenever given a chance. Going as far as risking their lives to cross the Mediterranean or Florida Straits.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

[3] http://www.jstor.org/discover/25818051

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.

Western culture has relative "material prosperity" because our ancestors invaded all the other places on earth and fucked them up. See: Africa, the Middle East. In places we didn't invade such as Mongolia and Japan, they're actually doing quite well. Before you look down on the rest of the planet, consider that Europe is one of the best places to survive on earth. It's temperate, it's fertile, it rains a lot, it's ge…

People do not enjoy being poor. They enjoy to be rich and choose to live a poor life.

I heard, the USA has deserts, too. And have you seen Dubai recently? Everything can be fixed with enough oil. Another example: Russia. Nobody conquered them either and it is the biggest country on earth with only 143 million inhabitants, so I bet, they find a way to feed them. Still life expectancy for males is 62 over there.

Westernization might not sound very romantic to people having it, people not having it, might think very different. Ask people from West and East Germany and you will get the idea.

The biggest plus of westernization/capitalism is, that you can not use VW to produce tanks to conquer the world anymore, because they would rather not have their own factories in other countries bombed.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#55

I don't think my kids would be better off without TV, and I suspect most people don't actually think that, either. TV (just as books) is a tool for delivering entertainment, education, and culture, and it's reasonably effective at that. I'm glad I had TV when I was a child. The thing I value most is that it inspired an interest in science, math, and technology. Thanks, Square One, Bill Nye, Beakman's World, Discover,…

You're espousing an ultra-modern perspective, one that can only happen from an entire life lived in the presence of ultra-modern technology. Such a perspective is limited only to the affluent and Western-oriented. That's a ridiculously tiny fraction of humanity. And even there it's only been for the last 20 years or so, I suspect closer to 10-15. It wasn't that long ago most people considered the Internet a tool for…

> You're espousing an ultra-modern perspective, one that can only happen from an entire life lived in the presence of ultra-modern technology.

Okay, so? Not sure what you're trying to get at here.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're espousing an ultra-modern perspective, one that can only happen from an entire life lived in the presence of ultra-modern technology. Such a perspective is limited only to the affluent and Western-oriented. That's a ridiculously tiny fraction of humanity. And even there it's only been for the last 20 years or so, I suspect closer to 10-15. It wasn't that long ago most people considered the Internet a tool for…

> You're espousing an ultra-modern perspective, one that can only happen from an entire life lived in the presence of ultra-modern technology. Okay, so? Not sure what you're trying to get at here.

The person I was replying to didn't seem to understand how people could think of technology, namely televisions, as an alien force that shouldn't be trusted. And indeed it shouldn't be trusted, until it becomes ubiquitous. High technology emerged in the fifties. It took over fifty years for it to suffuse our lives to the point where we could trust it.

I grew up with technology. Most of the kids I grew up with didn't. I had computers and video games and I spent all my time with them, all the time my mom would let me spend. She would kick me out and make me go play outside. She was right to do so, if I hadn't I might now be even more socially stunted than I am. These days parents won't do that. Kids today can spend an amount of time I could only dream of interacting with technology. We trust it now.

People in other parts of the world where high technology isn't ubiquitous would do well to distrust it. It rips through traditional ways of life like so much toilet paper. The people whose lives are disrupted often don't have anything else.

Mark Zuckerberg wants to bring the Internet to everybody. I hope he doesn't accomplish his goal too soon. The Arab Spring made a lot of people's lives measurably worse. Don't like your dictator, sure, topple him and feel real good about the democracy you think you're bringing to your country. What now? Until we, the West, inventors of high technology and snubbers of complex social problems, can answer that question, that delicate system of graft and corruption is keeping your country stable.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#57
post #14

I just watched episode two of Black Mirror (on Netflix). It shows an interesting world in which tech has really taken over the human.

Yes! That one really haunts me! They're completely cut off from nature and live in shoeboxes, albeit with lots of hedonic (and Wii-inspired) tech.

And then (minor spoilers) when someone finally does make a bold stance against the lifestyle they've created, they convince him to just bottle up that passion and sell it chunks to other drones, so that he can afford a bigger shoebox and do less menial labor.

I couldn't make sense of the role of the bicycling though. Why would someone benefit from people turning the wheels? In what economic equilibrium is that the best use for humans? Any energy source is better applied directly to generation rather than running through a human first as (packaged) food.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#58
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that's the most frustrating thing about the Westernization of the world. Your own culture is always invisible to you. You can only see it in contrast to something else. If everything becomes the same, then we lose the ability to even see those things, let alone think about them.

That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.

Adopting democracy, free markets, and property rights doesn't mean you also have to adopt wearing jeans, generic pop music, car-based infrastructure and everything else.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#59
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great sentiment, the same that is behind conservation in general. Most people, however, don't enjoy being poor and western is the only culture with a proven track record of basic material prosperity.

Adopting democracy, free markets, and property rights doesn't mean you also have to adopt wearing jeans, generic pop music, car-based infrastructure and everything else.

It seemingly doesn't. Yet that's exactly what happens. With jeans, coke, and pop usually there first, long before democracy.

Re: What Do We Want, Really?

#60
post #57
post #14

I just watched episode two of Black Mirror (on Netflix). It shows an interesting world in which tech has really taken over the human.

Yes! That one really haunts me! They're completely cut off from nature and live in shoeboxes, albeit with lots of hedonic (and Wii-inspired) tech. And then (minor spoilers) when someone finally does make a bold stance against the lifestyle they've created, they convince him to just bottle up that passion and sell it chunks to other drones, so that he can afford a bigger shoebox and do less menial labor. I couldn't ma…

I agree about the bicycling. I guess it was just symbolic.
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