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Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

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Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#71
I'm never sure what to make of people praising the therapeutic value and giving statements like "it's like a series of breakthroughs you'd get after years of therapy wrapped up into a couple hours.".

LSD, like other psychedelic drugs (Psilocybin, MDMA, DMT, ...), floods the brain with (mimics of) neurotransmitters, enabling it to make (almost arbitrary) connections. Hence the synesthesia. It's "therapeutic" effect stems from the fact that the brain/mind/consciousness is leaving the treaded paths it usually takes "automatically" and forms (forces) new trains of thoughts.

Hence the fascination: People are used to their brains working in a particular way, sorting your experiences into "proper" categories, and are stunned when they realize that they can actually process information in completely different ways as well. This is what people mean talking about "filters" being "removed". Aldous Huxley popularized this idea in "The doors of Perception".

Different medications like SSRIs have this effect as well, but by magnitudes less strong.

It's a torrent of thought(fragments) that your brain switches through on this drug. There might be some in there that actually help you cope with a problem you had in your life, but there are lot of "useless" bits as well.

So what taking LSD does is giving you a perspective you haven't had before. This might be of therapeutic value, but so can be other experiences you haven't had before. Like living in a monastery in Tibet. Getting a baby. Seeing a fellow soldier getting killed in the field. Not sleeping for 70 hours.

I'm sceptical of the praises because:

* LSD doesn't make your prior brain-structure go away. It softens it and forms new paths, but chances are high that you go back feeling the same and thinking the same as before. True therapeutic progress is always slow and iterative, because that way it is stable and lasting. Slamming the psychedelic hammer onto your mind knocks you out of your path, but the experience can't be integrated that well because it usually is too random. Also the iterative approach (meditating, behavioural therapy) makes your brain actually start to produce the neurotransmitters needed to form the desired thoughts.

* People usually feel really well for some time after taking this. This is logical, because they realized that their mind isn't as immutable and frozen as they were afraid it is. Also on strong serotonergic agents like LSD you also experience bodily effects like low to moderate fever (which you don't feel cause you're somewhere else). This can culminate in a serotonin-syndrome [1] [2]. When coming down from this condition it's naturally that you feel well, like you would "coming down" from food-poisoning.

What I find really interesting are two common emotions/feelings that people on psychedelic drugs experience:

* Spontaneous insight: that all the things they are experiencing are "true", "right", "eternal". Also "sacred" or "holy".

* All the things around are alive, vibrant, conscious.

I would like to know what in the mind actually produces the feeling of "truth" and what in the mind discerns between "conscious" and "unconscious" things.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome

[2] This is actually the main reason for people dying while partying on MDMA/ecstasy: their organs overheat.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#72
post #71

I'm never sure what to make of people praising the therapeutic value and giving statements like "it's like a series of breakthroughs you'd get after years of therapy wrapped up into a couple hours.". LSD, like other psychedelic drugs (Psilocybin, MDMA, DMT, ...), floods the brain with (mimics of) neurotransmitters, enabling it to make (almost arbitrary) connections. Hence the synesthesia. It's "therapeutic" effect st…

> True therapeutic progress is always slow and iterative, because that way it is stable and lasting.

What do you mean by "slow"? Hours, days, weeks, months, or years?

> Also on strong serotonergic drugs like LSD you always get serotonin-syndrome [1]

Your Wikipedia link says

> Singular use of LSD or other 5ht agonists is unlikely to cause serotonin syndrome in lieu of other metabotropic properties which affect the serotonin system.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#73
post #72
post #71

I'm never sure what to make of people praising the therapeutic value and giving statements like "it's like a series of breakthroughs you'd get after years of therapy wrapped up into a couple hours.". LSD, like other psychedelic drugs (Psilocybin, MDMA, DMT, ...), floods the brain with (mimics of) neurotransmitters, enabling it to make (almost arbitrary) connections. Hence the synesthesia. It's "therapeutic" effect st…

> True therapeutic progress is always slow and iterative, because that way it is stable and lasting. What do you mean by "slow"? Hours, days, weeks, months, or years? > Also on strong serotonergic drugs like LSD you always get serotonin-syndrome [1] Your Wikipedia link says > Singular use of LSD or other 5ht agonists is unlikely to cause serotonin syndrome in lieu of other metabotropic properties which affect the ser…

> What do you mean by "slow"? Hours, days, weeks, months, or years?

Depends on the issue, but yes. Weeks to years.

> Singular use of LSD or other 5ht agonists is unlikely to cause serotonin syndrome in lieu of other metabotropic properties which affect the serotonin system.

Technically correct. Diagnostic criteria include temperature > 38 °C for example, so it's only called serotonine-syndrome when symptoms get into the dangerous zone. What LSD does anyway is steering your body into that direction, so you might not have 38°C on LSD, but e.g. 37.4°C. Simply because it affects serotonergic systems and those regulate body-temperature. I'll update my post.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#74

When I see videos like this, or read other experiences of LSD, I wonder if I'm not missing out on something. LSD, uniquely amongst mainstream recreational drugs, seems to have the promise of an outright transcendental upside, with supposedly little downside. It saddens me that there is no safe and legal way for me to try it.

Is there really little downside? Anecdotally, I've heard from friends in the jamband scene about friends who did LSD who came back "completely changed , and not in a good way."

Psychedelics have not been demonstrated to have long-term negative effects. Important to consider that 2% of the general population will have a psychotic disorder and many more will have anxiety, depression, other mental problems at some point.

Psychedelics and Mental Health: A Population Study. PLOS ONE 2013. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#75
post #3

That clip left me with so many questions. What was the purpose of the dosing? Did they follow up with her? Was there a lasting change in her life? Seems like it must have been radically jarring to her 1950s housewife societal role.

She goes to sleep and dreams every night. People, including "housewives", are way less fragile than you might imagine.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#76

Interesting, although today videos of people on drugs are widely available. There is nothing transcendental or mind opening in the "special effects" she is experiencing, caused by short circuiting in her mental device. Even people who get high by inhaling fumes of toxic chemicals (varnishes, paints, solvents, ether, gasoline, etc) report similar or even more "amazing" things.

Most psychedelic users would say that the visual or sensory effects are not really the important thing. On psychedelics people can reimagine their concepts of self and universe. They can think about problems in what many feel is a totally new way of thinking.

In recent studies at Johns Hopkins, most volunteers described psilocybin (magic mushrooms, similar to LSD) as one of the most personally and spiritually meaningful experiences of their lives, comparable to the birth of their first child.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another annoying aspect of LSD is that it's impossible to say anything bad about LSD without being jumped on by people who have made LSD part of their own identity, the same way being a Democrat is part of their identity. Try saying anything bad about either one, and you're in for a bad time. It's possible that the silent majority simply feel that spending a bunch of time in an altered LSD state is a crazy thing to d…

A few counterpoints to your statement, "if you look at what the do, not what they say, they don't seem much different." Francis Crick attributed his discovery of DNA to LSD. Steve Jobs attributed much of his accomplishments in life due to his experiences on LSD (iirc, his aversion to buttons was developed during one particular LSD trip, and this led to the design of the one-button mouse, the click-wheel on the iPod,…

That cuts both ways - people can equally say "I was able to because I never took ."

Without some objective data, there's no way to attribute the abilities and accomplishments to the absence or presence of LSD.

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few counterpoints to your statement, "if you look at what the do, not what they say, they don't seem much different." Francis Crick attributed his discovery of DNA to LSD. Steve Jobs attributed much of his accomplishments in life due to his experiences on LSD (iirc, his aversion to buttons was developed during one particular LSD trip, and this led to the design of the one-button mouse, the click-wheel on the iPod,…

That cuts both ways - people can equally say "I was able to because I never took ." Without some objective data, there's no way to attribute the abilities and accomplishments to the absence or presence of LSD.

Crick developed his understanding of the structure of LSD during an LSD trip. Steve Jobs developed an active aversion to buttons during one of his LSD trips. These were merely two examples of direct counterpoints to the GGP post. These weren't concepts that were enabled indirectly by LSD; they were the direct results of the LSD trips, not cases of "I was able/not able to do because I took/never took ".

Re: Veteran's Hospital LSD Testing (1956) [video]

#80
post #5
post #3

That clip left me with so many questions. What was the purpose of the dosing? Did they follow up with her? Was there a lasting change in her life? Seems like it must have been radically jarring to her 1950s housewife societal role.

I think the truly fascinating thing about acid is that is does have an impact but it's somehow not that jarring, given what it is.

Jarring might have been the wrong word. I meant instead that the 6-10 hour eye opening experience would have likely caused her to question a lot of things about her life. Sometimes the questions you ask during an acid experience impact how you view yourself and your situation outside of the experience.

Being a 1950s housewife, those questions and realizations might not be coherent with her expected role.

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