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Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

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Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#51

Post by calvin_ »

lambda wrote: post #27
userbinator wrote: post #5

Wow. SPARC and Java, two things you wouldn't ever expect Intel hardware to ship with! The mention of SOAP-based protocols is also rather surprising, since they have rather high overhead, and this means ME is not just a little 8051-class MCU but almost a fully-featured PC itself... The amount of complexity - and the opportunities to hide things in that - has increased so much compared to earlier PCs that in some ways…

Not SPARC, ARC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARC_International

actually, also SPARC

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#52

Post by sedachv »

morganvachon wrote: post #48
sedachv wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that being philosophically right doesn't always mean being practically right. "Practical" is a code word people use to mean whatever is convenient for them or is on their agenda. You can use the argument "that's just not practical!" with whatever evidence you can come up with as an objection to almost anything, which makes it a poor argument. That's why we need unambiguous and objective philosophical…

> "Practical" is a code word people use to mean whatever is convenient for them or is on their agenda. I don't see it as a "code word", I see it as it is defined: In practice, as opposed to in theory. And I don't have an agenda, I'm just making an observation. > What you're really saying is that working against the development of surveillance and control technologies by private capital and government decision makers…

> In practice this is difficult (but not impossible) to achieve

Why? Without going looking at particular FLOSS situations, this is just defining the word "practice" to mean "difficult to achieve." In "practice," Linux on mobile phones was difficult in 2007 and is easy today.

> I'm not saying you don't have a valid viewpoint, but you don't have to make up your own version of what I said and attribute it to me to make your point. You can argue on your own merits and not resort to grade school tactics (at least I hope you can).

I'm not arguing with you, I am pointing out that your assumptions are vague and your conclusions circular. There is not a single "practice" that just happens to be some bad guy opposing FLOSS because he hates your freedoms.

Is Linux on the phone a good thing? Android benefits a tremendous amount from Linux but at the same time Android phones are locked down black boxes with huge privacy risks.

So it's one step forward for FLOSS practice, two steps backward for privacy theory.

People accuse Stallman of being impractical, but stricter adherence to theory (GPLv3) would have prevented the practical problems of locked bootloaders on Android phones.

It's not as simple as saying "theory easy, practice hard."

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#53

Post by astrange »

wiml wrote: post #46
lambda wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did everyone get SPARC from? The slides clearly say ARC, not SPARC.

Different versions of this slideshow have different information. The table titled "ME Core Evolution" (slide 15/16), for example, shows two generations in the version on slideshare, but three generations in the PDF on recon.cx. There is also more discussion of the SPARC architecture in the PDF version. I did wonder if SPARC refers to the Sun architecture, or if it's an evolution of ARC that simply collides with the o…

From the pdf version linked at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8813925

The author clearly believes it's SPARC in Bay Trail, since he seems surprised by it. A coincidence does seem pretty likely but you'd think Oracle would object.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#54

Post by Maakuth »

lambda wrote: post #30
Maakuth wrote: post #7

What, SPARC and Java in Intel motherboards? Is this some elaborate gag on Sun/Oracle? I hope they'll demo it by running Solaris there for good measure.

ARC, not SPARC. Did the title on HN say "SPARC" originally or something? Because the slides never mentions SPARC, they discuss ARC, an embedded ISA.

Somewhat different set of slides[1] was linked in the comments here, it appears the latest chipsets uses SPARC indeed. 1: http://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#55

Post by venomsnake »

pekk wrote: post #50
venomsnake wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets just hope that intel security teams are better than Sony Pictures' ones. After the sony hack ... lets say that I feel less secure about anything.

What was exceptional about the Sony hack? Lots of companies have been owned due to various oversights.

The scope. They almost reached to "be able to destroy the company" scale.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#56

Post by pgeorgi »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #44
cm3 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no. I thought I could select the right chip like you can do to dodge TSX and HT. What if I get an AMD CPU? Do those also have an IPMI in disguise inside the CPU package wired to a network interface?

> What if I get an AMD CPU? Do those also have an IPMI in disguise inside the CPU package wired to a network interface? AMD implements something similar with DASH in some of its APUs: http://www.amd.com/Documents/out-of-band-client-management-o... On page 10 in that PDF it says: > DASH support is available in numerous client platforms, including the HP Elitebook 700 series, HP EliteOne 705, HP EliteDesk 705 Mini, HP…

The interesting thing is that they refer to NIC vendors all the time - as if that feature is integrated with the ethernet controller (plus some help of the chipset to keep it alive when everything else is off).

However AMD has its own share of extra processors within the CPU and chipset, of which we (at coreboot) know of at least two: SMU and IMC. The firmware for both is still measured in kilobytes, and they seem to have limited access to hardware resources. (for SMU, see http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6103_-_en_-_...)

Newer chipsets (than kaveri/kabini) come with TrustZone (that ARM stuff) and a "Platform Security Processor", which indicates that there's at least one new processor, likely ARM based.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#57

Post by pgeorgi »

morganvachon wrote: post #49
gaius wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one would have to design everything from the logic chips up from scratch You mean like http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/products/index.html ? Stallman's endorsement of Chinese hardware illustrates tho' that he values software freedom over, y'know, political freedom, which puts him on dodgy ground IMHO.

> Stallman's endorsement of Chinese hardware illustrates tho' that he values software freedom over, y'know, political freedom, which puts him on dodgy ground IMHO. Show me a laptop or desktop computer not made wholly in China, or at the very least, containing a majority of parts not made in China, and you might have an argument here. The fact of the matter is, non-Chinese-made hardware meeting all of his requirements…

And even those Korean phones and tablets are probably built in the Kaesong Industrial Region, more or less directly helping North Korea.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#58

Post by pgeorgi »

astrange wrote: post #53
wiml wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different versions of this slideshow have different information. The table titled "ME Core Evolution" (slide 15/16), for example, shows two generations in the version on slideshare, but three generations in the PDF on recon.cx. There is also more discussion of the SPARC architecture in the PDF version. I did wonder if SPARC refers to the Sun architecture, or if it's an evolution of ARC that simply collides with the o…

From the pdf version linked at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8813925 The author clearly believes it's SPARC in Bay Trail, since he seems surprised by it. A coincidence does seem pretty likely but you'd think Oracle would object.

SPARC is maintained by SPARC International, so Oracle doesn't have too much to say about that.

However, Intel isn't part of that group (at least according to the website), and that doesn't fit their MO when adopting external technology.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#59

Post by morganvachon »

sedachv wrote: post #52
morganvachon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Practical" is a code word people use to mean whatever is convenient for them or is on their agenda. I don't see it as a "code word", I see it as it is defined: In practice, as opposed to in theory. And I don't have an agenda, I'm just making an observation. > What you're really saying is that working against the development of surveillance and control technologies by private capital and government decision makers…

> In practice this is difficult (but not impossible) to achieve Why? Without going looking at particular FLOSS situations, this is just defining the word "practice" to mean "difficult to achieve." In "practice," Linux on mobile phones was difficult in 2007 and is easy today. > I'm not saying you don't have a valid viewpoint, but you don't have to make up your own version of what I said and attribute it to me to make…

> There is not a single "practice" that just happens to be some bad guy opposing FLOSS because he hates your freedoms.

And once again, that's something I never said, nor inferred. I won't continue to have a discussion with someone who insists on twisting words and making up shit to chase an ever-changing point of view. I stand by what I actually said: 100% Free and Open Source software is a noble ideal and a powerful tool in the fight for digital freedoms, but in reality it's difficult (but not impossible) to achieve such a state. No matter what, we must continue to strive for that goal.

Re: Secrets of Intel Management Engine – Hidden code in your chipset

#60

Post by cm3 »

pgeorgi wrote: post #56
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if I get an AMD CPU? Do those also have an IPMI in disguise inside the CPU package wired to a network interface? AMD implements something similar with DASH in some of its APUs: http://www.amd.com/Documents/out-of-band-client-management-o... On page 10 in that PDF it says: > DASH support is available in numerous client platforms, including the HP Elitebook 700 series, HP EliteOne 705, HP EliteDesk 705 Mini, HP…

The interesting thing is that they refer to NIC vendors all the time - as if that feature is integrated with the ethernet controller (plus some help of the chipset to keep it alive when everything else is off). However AMD has its own share of extra processors within the CPU and chipset, of which we (at coreboot) know of at least two: SMU and IMC. The firmware for both is still measured in kilobytes, and they seem to…

Good to know I can freely choose between AMD and Intel chips then. Let's hope lowRISC doesn't implement a similar attack vector.
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