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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#181

Post by jacquesm »

wiredfool wrote: post #98
jacquesm wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk that the company folds hits the early employees just as hard as it hits the founders. Founders don't typically provide a whole lot of capital. Three guys meet in a room somewhere, hash out an idea, assign themselves CEO, CFO and COO, plunk $1000 on the table each, call each other 'founder', then get some funding and then hire you to implement their vision. Their risk is just about the same as yours, only you…

On the other hand, as engineer #1, I didn't personally guarantee any debits of the founder, nor was I the one the IRS was after for years for not paying payroll tax when money was tight.

That sounds like a very bad company to work for. Debts of founders are not guaranteed by the employees for a good reason (even more risk without upside), founders that go into debt in order to finance their start-up and put up personal guarantees are obviously in a different class than founders that externalize all or most of the risk. If the IRS goes after founders for not paying payroll taxes when money is tight then they more than likely have a reasonable cause to do so. I've seen one such case up close and I didn't fault the local tax arm one bit when they decided to go after the founders. After all, if you allow founders enough leeway to pass the risk of their business on to society then they will take even more risk.

Better to fold than to not pay payroll tax, or, alternatively, talk to the tax man and see if you can work out some kind of a deal. Simply not paying is illegal and will get you in seriously hot water.

As an employee you are insulated from that but that's simply bad business and bad management and nobody forces anybody to do such things.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#182

Post by inourtime »

minthd wrote: post #160
inourtime wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that because you're reading "competitive" as competitive with other companies that haven't taken outside funding?

Because i'm reading competitive as standard market rates.

And standard market rates aren't good?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#183

Post by mavelikara »

pm24601 wrote: post #161
cbsmith wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very reasonable case to be made that H1-B's in particular actually push domestic salaries up at the expense of foreign salaries.

No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.) H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

> H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily.

Agreed.

> green card applications go to back of the line

If you have an approved I-140 you can use the priority date of the original application. So no, it does not go to back of the line. Also, under the new executive action on immigration reform one of the proposals suggested is to issue EADs to folks with approved I-140s.

> must get a new job fast if they are laid-off

Agreed.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#184

Post by chrisbennet »

inourtime wrote: post #182
minthd wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because i'm reading competitive as standard market rates.

And standard market rates aren't good?

No, I think "standard market rates" are what employers are paying their engineer who has been there for a few years (and whom they are currently paying below what he/she could get if they left for another job) or possibly what someone would pay for a "standard software engineer" who really needed a job.

If you want to attract exceptional engineers then by gosh, you might just have to pay exceptional salaries.

At the end of the day, it's a business relationship and an intelligent engineer is quite justified in capturing some of the value that he or she generates.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#185

Post by S4M »

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

"VCs" aren't responsible at all, as far as I can tell, for the Google/Apple/et-al wage-fixing that cost the trust of engineers. That shouldn't be pinned on them, and it certainly shouldn't be pinned on Paul Graham. What VCs do that is wrong is that they've created a culture of co-funding and collusion-- a feudal reputation economy-- which thwarts independence in decision making and generates a small set of big winner…

You really shouldn't use any opportunity to bring on your usual thesis - VCs collude to fund only startups created by "connected" founders - when it is so out of topic.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#186

Post by waterlesscloud »

morgante wrote: post #173
waterlesscloud wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, those career listings are pretty bland. Not much sense of what you'd actually be doing, or even what the company is hoping to do in a bigger sense. If nothing else, more specificity in both those areas would help you stand out. Especially since, as you say, it's publishing and techies are kind of skeptical about their role in that. And "competitive compensation" to me signals "eh compensation". It's a pretty we…

Thanks for the feedback. > And "competitive compensation" to me signals "eh compensation". It's a pretty weaselly word. What do you think would sound better? Above market compensation? > Also, I didn't see any technical people mentioned on the About page? Are they not part of the team? Good catch. I'm on there (Director of Product & Technology) but we haven't done a good job of keeping it up to date with new hires. >…

Yes, "Above market compensation" is better. It makes me curious to find out what it is, and that's what you want.

I like the reworked description too. Definitely implies some interesting work to be done.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#187

Post by melindajb »

The fact is that investors want a free market for labor, but will not accept a free market for capital.

Otherwise anyone could invest in any company without silly "accredited investor" rules, which serve only to keep the cost of capital high enough to generate desired returns from the money changers.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#188

Post by lotsofmangos »

marincounty wrote: post #80
lotsofmangos wrote: post #6

I was working a minimum wage factory job in an area where it is very easy to get a job not that long ago, (it took 4 days from the phone call) and I asked my line manager if they had problems hiring. 'Yes', I was told, hiring was a major problem and keeping staff on was really difficult. I asked why they though that was. Apparently they think it is because state benefits are too high. edit - I'm still working it, I a…

I'm curious about the town you are talking about. I've seen the finances of people who rely on state benefits, and in the Bay Area--unless you have a bunch of kids(afdc) and were lucky enough to find section 8 housing; the state benefits are not enough to keep a room--you can eat though. I know too many homeless people who tried to get state benefits, and the help they recieved was tiny, and had a time limit. My best…

Am in the south west of the UK. 2 to 3 days a week of crap work covers my rent and most of my food and gives me loads of free time for pissing about on my own stuff. I avoid benefits, not through any particular ideology but more because I find them more trouble than they are worth. I sometimes earn decent money, but I find I get stressed as hell in offices and I don't get motivated enough by money to make up for it, so I am avoiding those kind of jobs for a bit.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#189

Post by davidw »

codeonfire wrote: post #179
davidw wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that matter, who picks the number of "how many H1B visas should we have", based on what criteria? Is there research backing up this number? Statistics? I'd be much more willing to let people decide on their own: http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.it/2014/06/the-optimal-number-...

I'm fairly sure that is the US congress and their criteria is how many minority votes they think they can get during an election year.

Because H1B's are about 'minorities'? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#190

Post by schlumpf »

greenyoda wrote: post #165
morgante wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree, especially when you factor in substantial equity. We have interviewed numerous people from banks and large tech companies and our salaries certainly don't seem out of whack. For reference, $150k is right on target according to AngelList data: https://angel.co/salaries

"especially when you factor in substantial equity" Unless your company ends up being the next Google or Facebook (which is a statistically unlikely outcome for any startup), your "substantial equity" may never be worth any significant amount of money. Living in NYC is expensive, and you can't pay your rent with stock options.

To somebody who watched the equity bubble unfold in '99-00, this is what a labor shortage looks like.
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