Earlier quoted context omitted.
We impose limitations on Free Speech for libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, hate speech, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, non-disclosure agreements, right to privacy, right to be forgotten, public security, public order, public nuisance, and campaign finance reform. (This incomplete list scraped from Wikipedia). The means by which we decide these e…
What is done and what is right are not identical sets. Most of those ways that we restrict free speech, for example, don't actually hurt anyone. The "fire in a crowded theater" is usually taken out of historical context, where it was being used for authoritarian purposes.
Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’
61–65 of 65 posts
Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is done and what is right are not identical sets. Most of those ways that we restrict free speech, for example, don't actually hurt anyone. The "fire in a crowded theater" is usually taken out of historical context, where it was being used for authoritarian purposes.
Most? It seems to me that there are a couple where it's arguable. I'm curious which ones you think don't cause harm to others and why it is you think they do not.
Obscenity and pornography don't necessarily hurt anyone. Sedition laws are, by definition, used only to support the current ruling class and government. Most of the trade secrets, NDAs, etc. are just to help entrenched interests--something many here have rallied about when signing contracts. Public order, public security, and public nuisance are additional laws mainly used to censor and justify the persecution of people who are in disagreement with the establish government.
Frankly, regulation of free speech has pretty much always favored the majority at the expense of the minority.
Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most? It seems to me that there are a couple where it's arguable. I'm curious which ones you think don't cause harm to others and why it is you think they do not.
So, in case it isn't clear, I'm ardently for unconditional free speech--with the obvious observation that that is not easily practicable in our current society. Obscenity and pornography don't necessarily hurt anyone. Sedition laws are, by definition, used only to support the current ruling class and government. Most of the trade secrets, NDAs, etc. are just to help entrenched interests--something many here have rall…
I'm of a similar mindset but don't hold such extreme views.
Allow me to try to provide some justification for the items you listed.
The types of pornography that are made illegal (here we are talking about America, you would get my agreement about recent laws passed in the UK) are snuff films - rape and child pornography or pornography that permanently disables or disfigures the subject - because they do necessarily hurt the subject. Once the pictures/videos are already taken, they continue to hurt the victims as their suffering is publicized and available to the fantasy of clients (and of course they won't see any proceeds), and this media will hurt future victims by institutionalizing a demand for new content. Limits on pornography (despite what religion institutions yell loudly about) are not about harm to customers but harm to subjects.
With exceptions for torture, humiliation, dismemberment and execution (including the same to animals) I won't defend obscenity restrictions as the arguments are quite different than those for restricted forms of pornography. These listed exceptions of course are great examples of harm coming from obscene content and again are illegal (though lacking in the case of animals) under obscenity laws under the harm principle.
Other forms of obscenity restrictions seem to me to fall directly in line with the offense principle and should not be restricted. Take for example the Supreme Court decision Miller v. California. The resulting 'Miller Test' for obscenity decisions:
1. Whether the average person would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to a lewd curiosity;
2. Whether the work depicts or describes, in an offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions, specifically defined by applicable state law; and
3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
Compare this test against Mill:
"That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."
Obscenity, when it is victimless, and it is almost always victimless, clearly fails the harm principle test. For the most part, this is the case in America. There are cases where obscenity laws prevent things such as expressions of homosexual affection, for example, and it is harder to find clear victimhood in these cases even when the law agrees to prohibit them. A note that this Supreme Court decision was made by a conservative majority court.
Regarding sedition I understand your point - that speech critical of the power elite ought to be protected in the strongest terms. I have a lot to say with regard to restrictions on sedition. I'll advocate for a devil for a blurb and then comment briefly in an attempt to sum up more than I can defend into a few sentences.
With very few exceptions (the velvet revolution?), successful seditious overthrow of a ruling class and/or government have in almost every single case caused great harm both to the ruling class and to those who are caught adrift in the following power vacuum. Furthermore the ruling class/governance structure have to be convinced that alternatives to their administration is harmful. Other mechanisms for change are (supposed to be) available in Western democracies so that seditious change is not necessary, as the JFK quote "those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable." One additional item - I can't actually find (in America) a modern use of sedition laws, though I merely performed an internet search.
Summing more than I can defend into a few sentences: presumably if a government were harming its citizens (the power elite abusing their position) this is a prior wrong and in alignment with the JFK quote violent revolution is inevitable. Presumably at the point where seditious speech is required for freedom from government by implication the government is unjust and its laws - those restricting seditious speech and otherwise - hold no justifiable weight.
In short I agree with you very wholeheartedly regarding sedition.
Because this is getting long, and because your analysis for the final items occupy a similar space - allow me to respond to them in tandem.
You suggest in the final five (trade secrets, NDAs, public order, security and nuisance) that harm may in fact be done to specific individuals - those whose income relies on the keeping of certain secrets/formulas/processes, or those who occupy certain streets/neighborhoods/townships - but that additional harm can be done to other individuals (dissidents and political activists) by a state seeking to weaponize these laws and to abuse them. I would suggest here that the problem is not with the laws but with the abuse. Any law can be abused by the state to harass or detain critics. The worry here is that by targeting laws that protect the public security ("fire!") one would throw the baby out with the bath water.
Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’
#64Author arguing for free speech complains about people exercising their speech to disagree with him speaking?
He's arguing about people not allowing him to speak. Did we read the same article?
Re: Free speech is last century. Today’s students want the ‘right to be comfortable’
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What are the good arguments FOR "trigger warnings?" If you've ever seen a rape survivor having a PTSD-induced breakdown, you consider it polite to avoid causing that when practical.
So we won't have a public debate about war anymore because it might cause a PTSD-induced breakdown in veterans?