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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#151

Post by kmonsen »

morgante wrote: post #141
kmonsen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150k is pretty bad for a senior dev in NYC fyi. Perhaps you have answered your own question. Banks will pay at least 2x more and large tech companies closer to that than what you are offering. Note I'm not talking about truly great developers, merely good senior ones.

I'm not sure I agree, especially when you factor in substantial equity. We have interviewed numerous people from banks and large tech companies and our salaries certainly don't seem out of whack. For reference, $150k is right on target according to AngelList data: https://angel.co/salaries

Maybe the AngelList data is why startups have trouble finding good engineers? There is no good way of finding out what a good developer should get, and that is because the companies (including yours) like it that way.

I only have anecdotal data, I don't think many people have more, but I am very sure a decent senior dev can get way more than what you are offering.

I think there is more to a job than just the salary, but at least be open about the fact that there are open positions doing similar work in the same city offering significantly more.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#153

Post by napperjabber »

mkozlows wrote: post #102
morgante wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world isn't nearly as binary as that. I'm not a VC or founder. I'm a developer just like you, trying to deliver cool products—but doing so requires more developers. If my company was trying to suppress wages, or refused to pay above market, then I'd agree with you that we have no right to ask for more talent. But we're perfectly willing to pay for talent—we just can't find any. I wouldn't be surprised if the numb…

So the thing is, I share your general opinion -- there is a legit shortage of talented developers, and it's hard to find them. BUT: I guarantee you that there is in fact a wage and benefits package you can offer that would get you more good applicants. Maybe it's more money (sure, "above market" is nice, but I'm not going to leave a job for $5K more than my "market" rate -- but for $50K more, well, let's talk). Maybe…

This is what I'm running into right now. Our CEO will not buy health insurance or computers for Dev. In a second breath, he gloats about paying people damn near nothing because they 'want to work in the industry.'

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#154

Post by dang »

chvid wrote: post #53

I wonder how long time this will live on the frontpage of HN before it gets "censored" to back as the discussion of PG's piece did? With the all internet's "direct communication" and "netizens democracy" it is funny how we cannot have a non-bullshit discussion about a subject like this.

There are 339 points and 636 (!) comments on that story. How anyone can call that "censored" is beyond me.

No moderator touched that post at all.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#155

Post by minthd »

morgante wrote: post #144
no_wave wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to just post a range. The listing just needs to communicate that you're paying well above market, which is a step beyond competitive (and I've never seen "above market" in a job listing). Of course, this is only if your company really is committed to doing so! I don't have a clever solution for 1. This is definitely a broader cultural issue - non-lawyers at a law firm would completely expect to make le…

> Given that nobody's turned an offer down, there's something that your job postings are missing that people are learning during the interview process. You are quite correct—I haven't yet figured out how to convey the interesting product/technical challenges we're working on in a mass way: especially not well enough to overcome must developers instinctual reaction to "publishing." If you have a minute, I would love t…

A cynical man would read your salary offer(for lead developer) - " As we haven't taken any outside funding, we can offer you meaningful equity with a competitive salary." as: not-so-good salary , with promises of getting rich on a startup that wasn't even able to convince investors.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#156

Post by inourtime »

minthd wrote: post #155
morgante wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that nobody's turned an offer down, there's something that your job postings are missing that people are learning during the interview process. You are quite correct—I haven't yet figured out how to convey the interesting product/technical challenges we're working on in a mass way: especially not well enough to overcome must developers instinctual reaction to "publishing." If you have a minute, I would love t…

A cynical man would read your salary offer(for lead developer) - " As we haven't taken any outside funding, we can offer you meaningful equity with a competitive salary." as: not-so-good salary , with promises of getting rich on a startup that wasn't even able to convince investors.

Is that because you're reading "competitive" as competitive with other companies that haven't taken outside funding?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#157

Post by pm24601 »

morgante wrote: post #142
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to concur with selmnoo, but be less rude about it: sorry, but those are the rules of the game. However hard a time you're having finding senior developers, the incentive to produce them domestically gets skewed downwards, making the problem worse in the long term, if we let you "patch" the issue temporarily with immigration rather than signaling higher demand to the market with rising salaries. Of course, y…

Training is part of the solution, but I truthfully don't think that can be driven by startups. We might not even be around years from now to receive the rewards from our investment in junior developers. More practically, I wouldn't feel right hiring junior developers when I don't think we'd be giving them the best training given our current staffing levels and product needs. Since we already have too few senior devs,…

This is nonsense. I am part of a 5 person company and we do training in the form of mentoring, helping each other, etc.

Training is a benefit - not a cost.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#158

Post by spc476 »

morgante wrote: post #94
beachstartup wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we're a startup and we've sent multiple people to offsite training. in general it only costs a couple thousand bucks per class per employee including room and board.

Interesting. Were they otherwise experienced developers who you just needed to train in your particular toolchain, or have you hired inexperienced developers and trained them to be more experienced?

There's training expenses regardless of who you hire. There's training in the work flow and the software stack you use (which you haven't mentioned at all on any of the job posts you mentioned elsewhere). It's never "slot right in and be 100% productive from minute one."

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#159

Post by amerliore »

FranzVonSuppe wrote: post #121
amerliore wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where would wages be if the biggest tech employers had not been blatantly colluding to depress wages, using illegal anti-competitive tactics? Paul Graham advocates for free trade when it will increase the value of his portfolio and the wealth of his friends. He doesn't say a word about how free trade has been undermined by the illegal collusion of Facebook, Google, and Apple.

I would just like to point out Facebook was not among the companies indicted for collusion. Think what you will about Facebook, but it is on the high horse in this occasion.

You're right. I would edit it but the comment is now too old to edit. My sincere apologies to Facebook.

Here is a partial list of guilty companies:

Apple

Google

Microsoft

IBM

Adobe

Oracle

Sun

Intel

Earthlink

Virgin

Genentech

eBay / Paypal

Pixar

Intuit

Lucasfilm

Dreamworks

Dell

Comcast

Clear Channel

WPP

AOL

AskJeeves

Lycos

Oglivy

Illumita

DoubleClick

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#160

Post by minthd »

inourtime wrote: post #156
minthd wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cynical man would read your salary offer(for lead developer) - " As we haven't taken any outside funding, we can offer you meaningful equity with a competitive salary." as: not-so-good salary , with promises of getting rich on a startup that wasn't even able to convince investors.

Is that because you're reading "competitive" as competitive with other companies that haven't taken outside funding?

Because i'm reading competitive as standard market rates.
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