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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#71

Post by joshAg »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #66

There's something interesting missing from this discussion -- do the most-skilled international developers want to move to the US? The US's reputation is at a low ebb. I mean, I like visiting, and I would love to work on some of the projects that are only available in the US, but the idea of actually living there? That's a really tough sell.

Enough do. For example, the line for people from India with a master's degree (separate lines for bachelors or phd) to get a green card is more than 11 years long. That's the time from when they qualify to get a greencard to when they actually receive it and not counting the years it takes to qualify for a greencard. During that time they have to stay on h1b visas, which can apparently be renewed indefinitely if the holdup is the backlog in the line for greencards.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#72

Post by arunabha »

revelation wrote: post #44
no_wave wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Paul Graham's description in that "Let in the 95%" article, companies are standing around with their dicks in their hands hoping that they find "the best" engineers, but on the cheap. If a company wants to hire 30 more "great" engineers, but isn't bumping up their pay to get at least 15 at a higher rate instead... there's something really off happening. It's standard economic theory that wages are sticky. I think…

And, besides the dick in their hands part, what Graham didn't mention in his warm christmas tale of meritocracy, they also make deals to not competete against others on talent, to fix (i.e. ruin further) what is already an extremely dysfunctional market (when did you last ask your coworker what she made?).

What's even worse is that the whole issue of the wage suppression saga has been conveniently forgotten by the tech elites and media. The case is still ongoing after the judge threw out the settlement Google et all offered, but the last begrudging mention of this in the tech or mainstream media was in Aug.

Nothing at all since then.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#73

Post by chvid »

sosuke wrote: post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

Absolutely; the programmer's wages even today are lower than the were in 2000. Of course 2000 was a peak.

Rather than just looking at general price inflation, you should look at cost-of-living at the tech hotspots (the big cities, silicon valley). That of course makes things even more dire.

Luckily you too can make the next big thing, sell your startup and then live happily as a venture capitalist / philanthropist.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#74

Post by walterbell »

winter_blue wrote: post #69
walterbell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also 50,000 annual "diversity visa" immigrants from countries with low immigration rates to the US.

For someone wishing to move to the U.S. the diversity lottery is a non-option, as the odds of winning it is a tiny fraction of 1%. Practically speaking, if you're not being persecuted, and don't have immediate relatives in the US -- you can only come as a skilled worker. It's the only route available to the vast majority of those who wish to come here. And the US is incredibly hostile to skilled workers by allocating…

> the odds of winning it is a tiny fraction of 1%

The global percentage for 2014 was 1.45% to be selected, but an applicant's percentage can be higher/lower depending on the quota assigned to their country of origin and the number of applicants for that country.

http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/dive...

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#75

Post by amerliore »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #9

It would be helpful to have some concrete examples of companies who are hurting from this shortage. What projects, specifically, are they not getting done? What specific requirements are they not able to find in potential employees? Why, specifically, is training not an option? How, specifically, is inability to get this project going hurting them? What specific compensation are they offering? If you want some trust,…

Training is seen as competitive suicide, because while you bear the costs of training, your competitors can then poach your trained employees by offering a salary that is less than your total cost for that employee but more than the salary you pay that employee.

X = cost to train employee

Y = salary of employee

Competitor pays Z such that Y The second factor is that if you raise wages for one person, then the rest of your workforce expects those wages. So a 10% salary increase for one person quickly becomes an across the board 10% bump on your personnel costs.

Bribing, lobbying, paying PR firms, pulling the wool over people's eyes is all judged to be a smaller expense and a worthwhile cost-saving measure.

The economically viable solution is to have schools do the training, but universities are likely not the best model for getting good tech workers.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#76

Post by latcampbell »

"We don't have exceptional programmers and hence we may be fucked" sounds like an excuse to me. A successful manager or leader is supposed to make an average team do great things. If a manager starts moaning for lack of great talent, I would suspect he is looking for excuses. Perhaps some introspection is needed.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#77

Post by zanny »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #6

I was working a minimum wage factory job in an area where it is very easy to get a job not that long ago, (it took 4 days from the phone call) and I asked my line manager if they had problems hiring. 'Yes', I was told, hiring was a major problem and keeping staff on was really difficult. I asked why they though that was. Apparently they think it is because state benefits are too high. edit - I'm still working it, I a…

I always have fun telling executives "how much are you spending each week?" "oh, so you aren't paying your employees even half that, and that is before taxes, rent, etc" "you have a labor shortage why, again?"

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#78

Post by [deleted] »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20

The whole premise of this "crisis" is that folks want to have their cake and eat it too. Feels to me like this is more about convenience for financiers. It's easier to do due diligence when everything you do goes through the same funnel a few minutes away from your office. Much easier than flying to Denver, New York or Chicago. Instead of importing more workers into the overcrowded and expensive valley, maybe export…

[deleted]

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#79

Post by selmnoo »

amerliore wrote: post #75
waterlesscloud wrote: post #9

It would be helpful to have some concrete examples of companies who are hurting from this shortage. What projects, specifically, are they not getting done? What specific requirements are they not able to find in potential employees? Why, specifically, is training not an option? How, specifically, is inability to get this project going hurting them? What specific compensation are they offering? If you want some trust,…

Training is seen as competitive suicide, because while you bear the costs of training, your competitors can then poach your trained employees by offering a salary that is less than your total cost for that employee but more than the salary you pay that employee. X = cost to train employee Y = salary of employee Competitor pays Z such that Y The second factor is that if you raise wages for one person, then the rest of…

> because while you bear the costs of training, your competitors can then poach your trained employees by offering a salary that is less than your total cost for that employee but more than the salary you pay that employee

I tell everyone that in this day and age, the company is not loyal to you -- they will get rid of you very easily if they need to, and so you should not be loyal to them. However, if the company starts investing in you, training you, then you should be loyal to that company. I would't go to a competitor that pays higher in this case (if they pay higher than 2(X + Y), consider it :)).

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#80

Post by marincounty »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #6

I was working a minimum wage factory job in an area where it is very easy to get a job not that long ago, (it took 4 days from the phone call) and I asked my line manager if they had problems hiring. 'Yes', I was told, hiring was a major problem and keeping staff on was really difficult. I asked why they though that was. Apparently they think it is because state benefits are too high. edit - I'm still working it, I a…

I'm curious about the town you are talking about. I've seen the finances of people who rely on state benefits, and in the Bay Area--unless you have a bunch of kids(afdc) and were lucky enough to find section 8 housing; the state benefits are not enough to keep a room--you can eat though. I know too many homeless people who tried to get state benefits, and the help they recieved was tiny, and had a time limit. My best friend who passed away was on SSDI. He knew he was lucky he qualified for SSDI, but he was always broke. I saw his checks and it was just enough to get through the month. People used to rib him about buying a cup of coffee at Starbucks, at the expense of The Federal Government, but they had no idea just how little money he was receiving.
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