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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

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Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#541

Post by smm2000 »

LetBinding wrote: post #511
amerliore wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When supply goes up price goes down. Logic 101 says that H1-B immigrants lower "the local market salary".

Only for fungible types of workers. Programmers, software engineers, data scientists, product managers, designers, etc aren't like farm or construction laborers. These skills aren't commodities.

That's exactly how Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and most other big companies view software engineers. Engineers go through standard interview process (3-5 technical interviews, 1 behaviour interview) and then companies assume that everyone above the hiring bar can be assigned to pretty much any project at the company. Companies use this process because it works - engineers are mostly fungible.

The above is not true for exceptional talent (Linus Torvalds, John Carmack, etc). I will vote in heartbeat for visas for people with total comp >$300k. If you are truly that valuable, you should be paid more than average Sr. Software Engineer at Google.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#542

Post by _xhok »

geebee wrote: post #526
dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

I'm going to strongly disagree with you on one point here. If you use very inflammatory language, you need to accept a degree of responsibility it the discussion veers rapidly off topic. PG chose to appy the phrase "anti-immigrant" to the people he disagrees with. Keep in mind, there are people who support high levels of immigration (the US currently takes 1.2+ million immigrants a year), support a path to legalizati…

In his first paragraph:

American technology companies want the government to make immigration easier because they say they can't find enough programmers in the US. Anti-immigration people say that instead of letting foreigners take these jobs, we should train more Americans to be programmers. Who's right?

It sounds to me that the word anti-immigration is simply a word he chose to literally mean "people who disagree with the aforementioned party that we should make immigration easier." It means much the same thing throughout the essay. What word would you suggest instead?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#543

Post by solomatov »

thmcmahon wrote: post #375
danmaz74 wrote: post #108

It looks to me like the solution to the problem is simple. Just have a "high tech visa" with no number limit, but one simple requirement: The company requesting the job needs to be offering something like 150% (or 200% or whatever makes sense) the average salary of the US workforce, or in their state. This will ensure that the visa will only be offered for skills that are difficult to find in the USA (or the specific…

This is essentially how the 457 visa works in Australia. It's uncapped but you have to pay a 'market salary rate', which is either the salary of an equivalent worker in the firm, or of an equivalent worker In the industry.

BTW, this is how H1B works as well. Employer should pay at least prevailing wage, to make a foreigner eligible.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#544

Post by solomatov »

DenisM wrote: post #447

I thought a lot about it, and I think I found a simple solution: Keep the current h1b caps, and then auction off each visa to the highest bidder. The auction proceeds must go to the employee in question, with jail term for anyone trying to claw it back. What this will do is drive the wages for the immigrant engineers ever higher, by extension raising the wages of Americans as well. It will also make sure only the bes…

This won't work. H1B aren't only for software developers, but for different kinds of specialists. For example, doctors, who are having residency in US often use this visa. However, resident's salary is smaller than software developer's.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#545

Post by kooshball »

sampo wrote: post #87
buro9 wrote: post #44

There is more than immigration in the way of non-US programmers moving to the US: 1) Immigration 1) Health care 3) Living standards (some part cost of rent, some part accessible lifestyle, some part relationships and future plans, etc) I'm a London programmer and yes immigration is an issue, but health care (for themselves and their partner) is joint #1 on that front. It's hard not to look on US healthcare as being t…

> It's hard not to look on US healthcare as being the worst possible product of US politics and that starts to impact the standard of living thing. It would be nice, if there were some rough guidelines, how much more I'd need to ask salary in the US, that would cover the extra fees for insurance and health care, that I get for free in most Western European countries?

It's hard to have a guideline. Each employer has different level of coverage and deductibles. Make sure you understand how the plan works and what it covers.

Most of the big well known companies have substantial coverage for you and your family. I know some of them have plans that have a yearly maximum out of pocket cost in the low thousands.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#546

Post by sskates »

danmaz74 wrote: post #108

It looks to me like the solution to the problem is simple. Just have a "high tech visa" with no number limit, but one simple requirement: The company requesting the job needs to be offering something like 150% (or 200% or whatever makes sense) the average salary of the US workforce, or in their state. This will ensure that the visa will only be offered for skills that are difficult to find in the USA (or the specific…

As a startup founder- done, sign me up!

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#547

Post by austenallred »

dang wrote: post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

I have to disagree. PG's essay was discussing immigration at a very broad level, and as such so are the comments in this thread. You seem to be asserting some definition of "what PG said" that isn't apparent in the essay itself.

The crux of PG's essay was this (taking from what is a sort of his thesis statement):

> American technology companies want the government to make immigration easier because they say they can't find enough programmers in the US... The technology companies are right.

He mentions things like how difficult it is to train programmers, and uses the word "great" in describing said programmers, but overall everything is backing up the blanket statement that "we need to allow more programmers to immigrate" without providing a discussion as to how that should be done.

As such, what you call "genetic tangents" are directly addressing the main point of the essay. H1Bs are the main method through which immigration occurs currently, and one would be remiss to have a macro discussion about immigration without mentioning the H1Bs.

I assume that there has been some sort of discussion or knowledge about PG's stance on the tech immigration, and perhaps even related to this thread, but I would argue that the fault of the imprecise nature of the discussion of this essay lies primarily with the essay itself.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#548

Post by geebee »

_xhok wrote: post #542
geebee wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to strongly disagree with you on one point here. If you use very inflammatory language, you need to accept a degree of responsibility it the discussion veers rapidly off topic. PG chose to appy the phrase "anti-immigrant" to the people he disagrees with. Keep in mind, there are people who support high levels of immigration (the US currently takes 1.2+ million immigrants a year), support a path to legalizati…

In his first paragraph: American technology companies want the government to make immigration easier because they say they can't find enough programmers in the US. Anti-immigration people say that instead of letting foreigners take these jobs, we should train more Americans to be programmers. Who's right? It sounds to me that the word anti-immigration is simply a word he chose to literally mean "people who disagree w…

I disagree with a number of things here.

First off, I don't think that I am obliged to come up with a good term as a condition for objecting to a bad term. In other words, I don't think I need to make a good suggestion as a condition for saying that "anti-immigration people" is a very poor choice of phrase.

I also think that your definition of the word anti-immigration isn't reasonable. There are so many ways to be in favor of immigration that don't involve specifically targeting programmers. I don't really agree that technology companies want to make immigration "easier" in some global sense. They want to be able to hire programmers from overseas (I tend to agree with PG that the "good" employers would be just as happy to hire free residents who can change jobs, though the "bad" employers clearly prefer the indentured nature of the visa and the control it gives them over the would-be immigrant). Regardless, tech companies don't necessarily want to make immigration easier for the millions of people living in the US illegally, or for people from traditionally underrepresented regions who have trouble getting a foothold because our system is based on family reunification.

This particular objection is an important one, because the very narrow definition of this phrase carries a whiff of the argument by ambiguity. You defend the term "anti-immigration people" one way (people who see no reason to specifically tinker with the immigration system to increase the percentage of immigrants who are programmers), but then you get to call them "anti-immigration people" knowing full well that you have brought a much broader (and unwarranted) accusation against them.

Why do you need a term or a label? Why not just explain the point of view that you disagree with (making a sincere effort to represent the argument at its strongest), and explain your disagreement?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#549

Post by [deleted] »

jschwartzi wrote: post #379
YuriNiyazov wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how the situation you are describing works in theory, but the example you are giving is weak. Every device I own has a video camera; I am sure yours do too.

Unless your devices can turn fine/coarse adjustment knobs and handle Oscilliscope probes remotely, I might think it's a perfectly fine example. You would still need to wake up at 3am to have the teleconference, and you would need to continually be aiming your laptop at the device in question. Additionally you would need to be able to adjust the focal range of your webcam, and it would need to be adjustable enough to…

[deleted]

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#550

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Amezarak wrote: post #535
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot hire a good Chinese programmer for 15-20k, so no worries.

Perhaps not, I did not check Chinese salaries, but you can hire good programmers from other countries for less than that.

Ultimately it's a world market for labor at the top end. Barring artificial distortions (immigration/emigration restrictions), people will move to where they can get the best deal; since good Chinese programmers can immigrate to the states, it puts a floor on Chinese salaries, the same is true in India actually.

It is a whole different game for soso programmers. If you want a soso programmer in China, they will be much cheaper in the states, but the bottom is also much lower than one from the states could imagine, and often you just get what you pay for (or worse).

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