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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

11–20 of 655 posts

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#11
> And since good people like good colleagues, that means the best programmers could collect in just a few hubs. Maybe mostly in one hub.

Owner of prestige hub wants it to be more prestigous, and wants your policy support to make it happen. No where is this spelled out as a conflict of interest.

Ycombinator seems similar in many ways to the Law Firm partner/prestige system, or the university prestige system, or the scientific publisher prestige system.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#12
I really want to believe this, but I'm not sure that I do.

Of course the tech companies want to hire people from overseas; being able to hire someone from India for half the cost but have them live in the US so there's some level of accountability/trust is a no-brainer. Huge new, cheap talent pool.

But, if I'm an entry-level, US-based programmer, what I see are floods of cheap talent, some with questionable skills, coming over to compete for my job.

On the surface it seems as simple as a conflict of interest between employees and the companies that employ them. Supply/demand.

Dig a little deeper and the argument becomes that the top programmers we're bringing over are going to start great companies. That makes sense; part of the reason the United States is so powerful is selection bias: If we create an environment the hardest-working and smartest people in the world want to come to, the end result is a lot of great companies that create enough jobs for everyone. Elon Musk isn't starting Tesla or SpaceX in South Africa (where he's from). So we create an all-star selection of the human race in one country, make laws that are favorable to people coming/staying, and the economy explodes.

What I'm not clear on is what the effect of opening the doors to programmers would be. Would truly great companies be started enough that the entire economy is shored up, or would it just dilute the talent pool to the extent that being a programmer isn't a "special" job you get paid $150,000/year for being decent at? The long-term, macro result of this would be interesting.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#13

That or they can pay foreign programmers a lot less and drive the average rate down for everyone.

Or pay them the same as American workers and allow that money have an amazing effect on the world.

Or we can continue only hiring Americans. Those $100 hoodies aren't going to buy themselves.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#15
I think it's a bit disingenuous to not even mention cost in this article. Clearly a lot of companies are using H1-Bs to save money more than to find great programmers. Even ones that genuinely want exceptional programmers may not even have the capability to identify great programmers.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#16
Another great essay by Paul Graham that spells out the idiotic state of the current US immigration system in a clear manner. It is fucking unbelievable that even in the comments here there are still people complaining about foreign programmers driving salaries down or taking jobs from US citizens. Paul Graham is right and any intelligent person can see this.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#17
>So they claim it's because they want to drive down salaries. But if you talk to startups, you find practically every one over a certain size has gone through legal contortions to get programmers into the the US, where they then paid them the same as they'd have paid an American. Why would they go to extra trouble to get programmers for the same price? The only explanation is that they're telling the truth: there are just not enough great programmers to go around.

And yet most start-ups pay programmers far less than they pay their lawyers.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#18
If you put all the engineers at Facebook, Apple, Google into a typically-sized college football stadium, they would barely fill it. The new digital economy is not inclusive for everyone, most everyone who does not produce technology is a spectator (e.g. walking down the street swiping their phone, sitting in a bar swiping their phone v. writing apps or infrastructure software).

The reality is that the Apple/Google/Facebook level (and aspiring) companies want the H1B limit raised so that they can attract the best in the world. However, there are companies with profit-based motives. Infosys, Wipro et al. extensively abuse the H1B system and create a system of indentured servitude for, mostly, the non-Apples of the world. The companies that aren't shining stars - but like most other companies need software maintained and built to sustain their business.

Not every talented non-US Facebook employee wants to live in their home country. In some cases, the home country has rampant inflation/unemployment/bad schools/crime. America is still very much the land of opportunity, despite its flaws.

Consulting agencies almost always reach a point where they can't maintain quality and simultaneously pursue greater revenues (because they can't hire enough good people). What usually happens, sadly, is that the revenues take precedence and they start diluting the overall work quality.

You still can't beat the power of face to face human interaction unless you build something like The Matrix - where every one inside it is a hologram.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#19
Read: We don't want to train workers or pay them a good salary. We expect them to know everything beforehand and be content with crappy wages, then wonder why the brightest kids are going into fields like medicine and high finance.
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