Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

businessweek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#21

Post by zmmmmm »

cyphunk wrote: post #3

Releasing such documents, even if fully redacted, is important for State Agencies when dealing with a branding windfall. This, along with for example Obama's recent memo to the US Intelligence community asking them to be more considerate of civil liberties for allied nations, do nothing to actually address the problem but they do give off the appearance of caring. Compare this to how a corporation deals with a negati…

I'm confused how you could consider this situation to be a "windfall" for these agencies in any sense? A windfall is a positive thing, the surveillance story is a negative for them surely?

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#22

Post by venomsnake »

cyphunk wrote: post #3

Releasing such documents, even if fully redacted, is important for State Agencies when dealing with a branding windfall. This, along with for example Obama's recent memo to the US Intelligence community asking them to be more considerate of civil liberties for allied nations, do nothing to actually address the problem but they do give off the appearance of caring. Compare this to how a corporation deals with a negati…

Well ... not buying toyota is easy. Giving up US citizenship is hard. The USG have the bargaining power.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#23

Post by Stratoscope »

pXMzR2A wrote: post #20
aaron987 wrote: post #9

"The heavily-redacted reports include examples of data on Americans being e-mailed to unauthorized recipients, stored in unsecured computers and retained after it was supposed to be destroyed, according to the documents." Therein lies one of the major problems with these mass surveillance programs. Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properl…

> Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properly securing that data. I cannot tell whether you're being paid for by these folk, or just plain politically naive, or suffer from induced helplessness. Your argument of "outrage" has levels built into it. L1: collect information L2: of innocent L3: americans L4: properly securing data L1+L2+L3+L4 =…

You make some good points, but your argument would be stronger and better received if you left out the personal insults.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#24

Post by venomsnake »

krapp wrote: post #8
happyscrappy wrote: post #2

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Probably in a few years some of this will percolate to some high court as human right issue.

There was right of privacy mentioned in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#25

Post by a3n »

cyphunk wrote: post #3

Releasing such documents, even if fully redacted, is important for State Agencies when dealing with a branding windfall. This, along with for example Obama's recent memo to the US Intelligence community asking them to be more considerate of civil liberties for allied nations, do nothing to actually address the problem but they do give off the appearance of caring. Compare this to how a corporation deals with a negati…

> but they do give off the appearance of caring.

No, they give off the appearance of having been coerced by an unfavorable FOIA ruling to release as little as they can.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#26

Post by alfiedotwtf »

staunch wrote: post #12
randomfool wrote: post #4

Christmas Eve. Great job attempting to sweep it under the rug, NSA. I hope the papers all wait until after New Years to report.

It's amazing how much this says about them that they would try to hide this report. They're in dire need of a real leader.

> They're in dire need of a real leader

You spelled scrapped incorrectly.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#27

Post by MaysonL »

zmmmmm wrote: post #21
cyphunk wrote: post #3

Releasing such documents, even if fully redacted, is important for State Agencies when dealing with a branding windfall. This, along with for example Obama's recent memo to the US Intelligence community asking them to be more considerate of civil liberties for allied nations, do nothing to actually address the problem but they do give off the appearance of caring. Compare this to how a corporation deals with a negati…

I'm confused how you could consider this situation to be a "windfall" for these agencies in any sense? A windfall is a positive thing, the surveillance story is a negative for them surely?

Windfall, as a word, is a fossilized metaphor. A windfall is that which falls from a tree as the result of wind. It can be fruit, small branches, or the whole tree. It can be good, or it can be bad: think of a tree falling on your car or house.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#28

Post by pdkl95 »

krapp wrote: post #8
happyscrappy wrote: post #2

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Spying in enemies is, of course, expected behavior.

Spying on allies... is also expect, but there's a catch: you're not supposed to get caught. This might mean avoiding some types of spying that are too risky. As long as everybody uses spies "under the table" so nobody notice, it's hard to accuse each other of impropriety.

If a spy screws up badly and IS caught, it IS going to cause a scandal. Traditionally, this means the spying country is going to have to make some sort of gesture or reparation to patch over the relationship. In extreme cases this could be real payments of cash or goods (rarely, even letting the spy be tried in the foreign court). Modern realpolitik probably requires only a minor concession in a future trade agreement.

This isn't a law or treaty; failure to do something to amend the relationship simply leave the insult/animosity unresolved which is probably bad for future negotiations.

So yes, spying will happen on our European allies. We just weren't supposed to get caught at it. Now that we are, it's on us to patch over that relationship, if we care about the future of those relationships.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#29

Post by DigitalJack »

MaysonL wrote: post #27
zmmmmm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused how you could consider this situation to be a "windfall" for these agencies in any sense? A windfall is a positive thing, the surveillance story is a negative for them surely?

Windfall, as a word, is a fossilized metaphor. A windfall is that which falls from a tree as the result of wind. It can be fruit, small branches, or the whole tree. It can be good, or it can be bad: think of a tree falling on your car or house.

The common usage has a good connotation.

From Websters:

Synonyms: benediction, benefit, boon, felicity, godsend, good, manna, blessing

Antonyms: affliction, bane, curse, evil, plague, scourge

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#30

Post by meowface »

pXMzR2A wrote: post #20
aaron987 wrote: post #9

"The heavily-redacted reports include examples of data on Americans being e-mailed to unauthorized recipients, stored in unsecured computers and retained after it was supposed to be destroyed, according to the documents." Therein lies one of the major problems with these mass surveillance programs. Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properl…

> Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properly securing that data. I cannot tell whether you're being paid for by these folk, or just plain politically naive, or suffer from induced helplessness. Your argument of "outrage" has levels built into it. L1: collect information L2: of innocent L3: americans L4: properly securing data L1+L2+L3+L4 =…

I think it's perfectly reasonable to use "innocence" as a qualifier for whether or not intelligence should be gathered about a person. Law enforcement uses it, why shouldn't intelligence agencies?

Of course, the problem is that innocence in this case is determined behind closed doors and secret courts, instead of public courts.

Post reply on HN