NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#11

Post by xnull2guest » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 8:59 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #8

happyscrappy wrote: post #2

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

America as a nation has always been drawn taut between its interests - intelligence, military, economic, political and otherwise - and its ideals which clearly state that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" which includes a right to a liberty which excludes suspicion-less search and seizure and a right to be secure in their persons.

Throughout the history of America we've seen the tension shift to one side of this rope or the other. through a series of Supreme Court decisions in the very early 1900's (during the Spanish American war) it was settled at the highest level that American occupied territories do not have a right to self-determination nor to many other constitutional rights. Today this is status quo.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#12

Post by staunch » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 9:09 PM UTC

randomfool wrote: post #4

Christmas Eve. Great job attempting to sweep it under the rug, NSA. I hope the papers all wait until after New Years to report.

It's amazing how much this says about them that they would try to hide this report. They're in dire need of a real leader.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#13

Post by cgio » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 9:12 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #8

happyscrappy wrote: post #2

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Europeans are not subject to American laws, but they would be if they stole something in the states, or they would expect to be protected by US police when visiting the states. Can someone with knowledge comment on how this applies to someone engaging in commercial relationship with a US citizen or corporation? I.e. is it fair to make the assumption in that case that their information in the context of that exchange is protected from espionage? If yes, do they have legal resource for breach in this trust or is the right only enforceable by the US citizen or corporation in this relationship?

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#14

Post by Htsthbjig » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 9:18 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #7

> In a 2012 case, for example, an NSA analyst “searched her spouse’s personal telephone directory without his knowledge to obtain names and telephone numbers for targeting,” according to one report. The analyst “has been advised to cease her activities,” it said. How is this not a crime? It they can come over you from downloading off JSTOR using legitimate access, why is this person still employed at the NSA rather t…

"How is this not a crime?"

It is. But a crime does not need to be punished if those that commit it are powerful enough.

People in the NSA know lots of secrets of everybody. They know if the president has a mistress. They know if members of congress or their family do take drugs. They know who is corrupt and who does not. They know all the mistakes people did for getting where they are.

Remember that the NSA records and stores all telephone conversations so they can years later analyze and make sense of it.

So telling the person not to be a bad boy again is the best solution for everyone involved. Angry employees are not good here.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#15

Post by paralelogram » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 9:28 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #8

happyscrappy wrote: post #2

What about the spying on Europeans or are they not considered people?

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws

This isn't true.

"Richard O'Dwyer, a computing student at Sheffield Hallam University, faces a potential 10-year term in a US jail despite never having been to America or using web servers based in the country."

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-lo...

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#16

Post by krapp » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 9:37 PM UTC

paralelogram wrote: post #15

krapp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws This isn't true. "Richard O'Dwyer, a computing student at Sheffield Hallam University, faces a potential 10-year term in a US jail despite never having been to America or using web servers based in the country." http://www.theguardian.com/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-lo...

Arguably, this only applies to the degree that the UK allows, but that is a good point.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#17

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 10:07 PM UTC

Htsthbjig wrote: post #14

ceejayoz wrote: post #7

> In a 2012 case, for example, an NSA analyst “searched her spouse’s personal telephone directory without his knowledge to obtain names and telephone numbers for targeting,” according to one report. The analyst “has been advised to cease her activities,” it said. How is this not a crime? It they can come over you from downloading off JSTOR using legitimate access, why is this person still employed at the NSA rather t…

"How is this not a crime?" It is. But a crime does not need to be punished if those that commit it are powerful enough. People in the NSA know lots of secrets of everybody. They know if the president has a mistress. They know if members of congress or their family do take drugs. They know who is corrupt and who does not. They know all the mistakes people did for getting where they are. Remember that the NSA records a…

> Angry employees are not good here.

On the contrary they're good for everybody.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#18

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 10:08 PM UTC

cgio wrote: post #13

krapp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably, as Europeans are by definition not subject to American laws, they are not relevant to a case involving an American intelligence agency breaking American laws limiting American intelligence agencies' ability to spy on American citizens. Because of course, spying on people outside one's own country is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do.

Europeans are not subject to American laws, but they would be if they stole something in the states, or they would expect to be protected by US police when visiting the states. Can someone with knowledge comment on how this applies to someone engaging in commercial relationship with a US citizen or corporation? I.e. is it fair to make the assumption in that case that their information in the context of that exchange…

In a nutshell: might makes right.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#19

Post by jellicle » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 10:15 PM UTC

The idea here from a public relations viewpoint is to reveal a small crime to conceal a large one.

Individuals will be described to have violated the NSA's strict internal rules and snooped on their cheating spouse or whatever. One, two, three incidents. Look, we've come clean!

Not mentioned will be the wholesale storage of every communication of every American, which the NSA does not deem to be surveillance until they specifically search on your name while knowing you are an American.

This is pretty much the exact same playbook as we observed with Abu Ghraib. Rape rooms run by the government are NOT illegal; that's official US government rape, and covered by memos saying it is legal, so everything is fine. And if over 100 people are killed by U.S. official torture and rape, that too is just fine.

But if overenthusiastic PFCs make prisoners lay on top of each other and give a thumbs-up, that's an error that needs to be disclosed and heavily punished.

The idea in each case is to make the unobservant member of the public think that all the abuses have been disclosed, and they are minor, and the individuals responsible have been punished.

Re: NSA Reports Improper Surveillance of Americans

#20

Post by pXMzR2A » Thu, Dec 25, 2014, 10:21 PM UTC

aaron987 wrote: post #9

"The heavily-redacted reports include examples of data on Americans being e-mailed to unauthorized recipients, stored in unsecured computers and retained after it was supposed to be destroyed, according to the documents." Therein lies one of the major problems with these mass surveillance programs. Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properl…

> Not only are they collecting information on millions of innocent Americans, but now it appears that they are not properly securing that data.

I cannot tell whether you're being paid for by these folk, or just plain politically naive, or suffer from induced helplessness.

Your argument of "outrage" has levels built into it.

L1: collect information

L2: of innocent

L3: americans

L4: properly securing data

L1+L2+L3+L4 => boiling your blood.

For one, why do you even care about L4? Who cares if they secure data properly, they are already doing L1+L2+L3

Why do you care that it is Americans? Would it be better if they focused only on non-Americans, would you have cared less? They are already doing L1+L2.

What is the reason you are hanged up on "innocent"? What does that even mean? Who and how do you determine if someone is innocent? Are you that devoid of critical thinking that you fail to see the rhetoric of "innocents" legitimizes whatever is to be done to those deemed not innocent? They are already doing L1.

They are doing L1. That by itself should have boiled your blood without any regard for L2+L3+L4, which are false arguments inserted into the debate in order to legitimize the actual assault on human rights under the disguise of "better security" by the same agencies that always turn these kind of tricks time and time again.