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For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

nytimes.com

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Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#41

Post by michaelochurch »

monksy wrote: post #37
michaelochurch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in New York for 7 years. Yeah, there are things I dislike about the East Coast. (Oddly enough, I'm moving to Chicago in January. I'm really looking forward to it.) I'm not a fan of DC's culture. As for Boston, I like the younger crowd a lot, but there's definitely a lack of progressivism that I see in Boston companies. New York real estate is obnoxiously expensive, but yes, the people are more down to earth a…

Moving to Chicago in January. Man, just hope that we have a warm winter, unlike last year. Take it with a grain of salt. I'm a east coaster born and raised. I only moved to chicago a year and a half ago. Something I noticed about Chicago: I met all of my neighbors within a week of moving in. I had never known my neighbors let alone was able to acknowledge them beyond a nod while on the coast. If you want to go for a…

Moving to Chicago in January. Man, just hope that we have a warm winter, unlike last year.

I've heard about it. I've experienced Minnesota winters and N. European winter, so it's not new to me.

If you want to go for a beer sometime after you move in. I would be willing to do that.

Sure. I'm michael.o.church at Google's email service.

I'm pretty excited about the move, even if people think I'm nuts for going in the dead of winter.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#42

Post by foobarqux »

kenjackson wrote: post #2

Very good article. I must admit, the more I read about Thiel, the less I like him. It's unclear to me why they think that SV is more meritocratic than anything else. Sports still seems much more meritocratic than SV. Any industry that depends so much on getting funding hardly seems like it would be especially meritocratic -- at least at first blush.

Unless you include genetic pre-disposition as meritous athletics is probably one of the most anti-meritocratic fields.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#43

Post by danilocampos »

facepalm wrote: post #39
minikites wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So take that thought one level deeper: why are proportionally fewer women entering computing and proportionally more of them dropping out?

I knew this would come up. You probably think because computers weren't marketed to women? What if electronics companies only marketed to men because it was mostly men who were into electronics? Then rinse, repeat, why were fewer women interested in electronics, and so on... I don't have all the answers, but one answer is: because the women were doing other things. There seems to be this idea that women who don't go…

You completely missed the "proportionally more dropping out," therefore expending three paragraphs saying nothing.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#45

Post by brighteyes »

michaelochurch wrote: post #36
brighteyes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unclear to me why they think that SV is more meritocratic than anything else. Sports still seems much more meritocratic than SV. Any industry that depends so much on getting funding hardly seems like it would be especially meritocratic -- at least at first blush. Fair point. Sports may indeed be fairer and more objective than other industries - results are easily measured, and are objective. And it's clear tha…

There's some truth in what you're saying, and I don't entirely disagree, but here are where I see you being overly optimistic on the matter of SV's meritocracy. > You don't need a degree to get into tech. As soon as the market draws back, the non-BA programmers are going to be shut out (and most will have to go to school). I wish it weren't that way, but that seems to be how these things work. The more pedigreed you…

I agree with your points. Regarding the last one, I meant more the case of technical people, that never had a mentor. There are a lot of people like that in SV that are doing great. But I certainly concur that for getting funding, you do need connections, difficult or impossible without them.

As I said before, I'm not saying anything is perfect, and there are plenty of flaws. I would say that more flaws exist in getting funded than in having a successful career - which is most people in tech in SV.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#46

Post by sheensleeves »

foobarqux wrote: post #42
kenjackson wrote: post #2

Very good article. I must admit, the more I read about Thiel, the less I like him. It's unclear to me why they think that SV is more meritocratic than anything else. Sports still seems much more meritocratic than SV. Any industry that depends so much on getting funding hardly seems like it would be especially meritocratic -- at least at first blush.

Unless you include genetic pre-disposition as meritous athletics is probably one of the most anti-meritocratic fields.

A claim from a blogger on these issues: performance enhancing drugs in athletics widen the gap between the genetically gifted and the less so. Seems reasonable, but not intuitive.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#47

Post by facepalm »

danilocampos wrote: post #43
facepalm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew this would come up. You probably think because computers weren't marketed to women? What if electronics companies only marketed to men because it was mostly men who were into electronics? Then rinse, repeat, why were fewer women interested in electronics, and so on... I don't have all the answers, but one answer is: because the women were doing other things. There seems to be this idea that women who don't go…

You completely missed the "proportionally more dropping out," therefore expending three paragraphs saying nothing.

I didn't miss it. If they find it is not as much fun as they thought and they have other options, they drop out.

I'm pretty sure, for example, that women tend to be less concerned about the potential income of their profession.

I wouldn't be surprised if women are on average less antisocial than men, for the simple reason that women are desired by the world. Men wonder how to talk to women, women wonder how to avoid being talked to (great simplifications of course). So computing would on average be less attractive (in the days before facebook anyway).

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#48

Post by rgoberstein »

foobarqux wrote: post #42
kenjackson wrote: post #2

Very good article. I must admit, the more I read about Thiel, the less I like him. It's unclear to me why they think that SV is more meritocratic than anything else. Sports still seems much more meritocratic than SV. Any industry that depends so much on getting funding hardly seems like it would be especially meritocratic -- at least at first blush.

Unless you include genetic pre-disposition as meritous athletics is probably one of the most anti-meritocratic fields.

Of course physical genetics give many athletes an advantage, but any athlete will tell you that training - both mental and physical - are the only things that will make an athlete or team win and can frequently make up for predisposed characteristics that may be disadvantageous (shorter stature, smaller frame, etc). As far as meritocratic environments go, sports is certainly among the top.

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#49

Post by ninavizz »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #40
learc83 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That suggests a society wide issue. The gender gap is every bit a society wide issue. When I was in middle school and high school, I didn't know a single girl who was interested in technology. This says that this issue begins when girls are young and is either something imprinted on them by society or something that is innate. I haven't seen anything that suggests that our industry is more able to solve the gender g…

Certain aspects of male/female difference are definitely innate. For example, among young infants, females are more interested in faces and people, while males are more interested in mechanical objects. I believe a study showed this effect was present & statistically significant only a short time after birth (too soon to be influenced by culture). There are well-known differences in brain structure, such as the porti…

Where's your PhD? Flagging for abuse...

Re: For Stanford Class of '94, a Gender Gap More Powerful Than the Internet

#50

Post by ninavizz »

learc83 wrote: post #24
rhino369 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racial gap is present in almost all faucets of American life. That suggests a society wide issue. The gender gap is fairly unique to the tech industry and it is pretty extreme. My graduating class at Illinois for EE was 95% male.

>That suggests a society wide issue. The gender gap is every bit a society wide issue. When I was in middle school and high school, I didn't know a single girl who was interested in technology. This says that this issue begins when girls are young and is either something imprinted on them by society or something that is innate. I haven't seen anything that suggests that our industry is more able to solve the gender g…

50% of society are women. ~30% of tech employees on avg, are women—with women in technical roles or leadership being far less. Black Americans comprise 13% of our population, and Latino Americans comprise 17% of the population. In Tech, they represent ~2% and ~%3% of our workforce, respectively.

Anybody who does not think this is a significant problem, has no business participating in the creation of products for any human to usw in their lives. None.

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