Live data from Hacker News

Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

forbes.com

71–80 of 91 posts

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure - Gandhi (and pretty much anyone who we consider to have "changed the world" - MLK, Steve Jobs, etc.) fits a lot of the uberman characteristics - hence my note re: the fact that the uberman is actually viewed as a positive. Distinction here for me is that Gandhi and/or MLK and/or Pussy Riot relied on and broke certain social rules based on what I consider to be moral abstractions that (I would argue) (1) pre…

I think what you're really saying with all those fancy words about pre-existing moral validations (which is really just an argument from authority) is that you agree with Gandhi/MLK/Pussy Riot that the laws they willfully broke were in fact unjust, and the authorities they were fighting against were tyrannical, and their motives were wholesome, whereas you don't feel that the laws Uber willfully breaks are unjust (or…

Hm - ya, I guess I didn't make it clear enough but I think Uber is net-positive to society, to be sure, no questions asked. How many businesses in the past 30 years have created that many $25-$35/hour jobs that allow for huge flexibility to the workforce while simultaneously fulfilling a huge consumer need? Not more than a few, and I think they are all awesome.

This all was more just a thought-experiment and an attempt to draw a connection I found interesting, but not something I necessarily believe at all - see my "Note on Uber" towards the end of the post:

"Note on Uber: I think Uber is a great business and has a significantly net-positive impact on society, and I reserve judgment w/r/t whether TK and the other Uber execs are good or bad people - I can't conclude they are good because they run a good business, and I can't conclude they are bad because they say stupid things in public."

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#72
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing his point. "Interests" is a technical term in economics which means something different from the common usage. In short, it means things you consciously seek for their own value. Love, being moral, fulfilling duties; all of these are interests in the sense economists use the term. NB: Economists largely study specifically monetary interest because it's something they can measure. A number of criticisms…

> "Interests" is a technical term in economics which means something different from the common usage. In short, it means things you consciously seek for their own value. Love, being moral, fulfilling duties; all of these are interests in the sense economists use the term. So what is the "utility" (sorry, I couldn't resist) of this term? It seems to be a tautology - what else could people pursue besides their "interes…

The core significance "rational interests" is that they are consistent. For example, if you like A more than B and B more than C, you should like A more than C. The important part is the internal consistency, not the actual preferences. You could aim at nothing more than helping your fellow man and behave perfectly rationally, as long as you're consistent about it.

It's not a perfect model because people's preferences are not necessarily totally ordered, and people are not always consistent, and preferences change in interesting but sometimes inconsistent (and often predictable) ways. But it's pretty good.

I think it's a great way to think about things because it makes no judgements about what your actual goals are. After all, people have different preferences and interests, and that's fine. More importantly, this also means you could reuse the same ideas perfectly happily for corporations, organizations, societies or event AIs and still draw interesting conclusions. It also lets us create systems that can successfully cater to agents with wildly different interests and get them all to cooperate willingly—that's one of the most important features of our market system and capitalism.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#73
post #5

A better question might be "Is Homo Economicus a Strawman?" To which the answer is: yes, it is. Classical economics does not actually assert that individual humans behave in a purely rational and fully-informed manner. A more accurate premise is that groups of humans tend on average to act at least somewhat as if they were rationally well-informed. We have tools to determine what "rational" behavior might look like a…

> A better question might be "Is Homo Economicus a Strawman?" > To which the answer is: yes, it is. Classical economics does not actually assert that individual humans behave in a purely rational and fully-informed manner. (Actually, classical economics does, in the sense that markets follow a price-demand curve rather than a wiggle as seen experimentally.) Worst yet, though: it's sheer lunacy. In the words of Steve…

Technically, since you're buying one item from each group or not, you only actually need 100 bits of information to complete the search problem, unless you assume conditional structure of utility between the 100 groups. Mentally asking and answering a mere 100 yes/no questions is not at all hard, especially since you can use cached answers of the form, "I am a man, so I don't need women's hygiene products today."

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#74
People misunderstand classical economics, because it is subtle.

The prisoner's dilemma is an interesting game because it is extreme: people are able to lower the total welfare while raising their own.

But classical economics asserts that these situations arise only when there are externalities or market frictions, and only in proportion to how large these are (there are also issues of wealth distribution, but this could be thought of as a friction to perfect taxation).

If there were no market frictions, and people could be taxed according to their innate ability to earn money, then it wouldn't matter whether people aimed to maximize their own utility, or the sum of everyone's utility: they would engage in exactly the same actions.

Altruism vs selfishness only becomes an issue when there are externalities or frictions. E.g. do I choose to pollute a stream, even though I know I won't be punished. Or do I choose to work less than I would otherwise, because some of my income is taxed (if people didn't work less for this reason, we could have a tax system with much more redistribution).

So neoclassical theory isn't nearly so tied to the idea of selfishness as people think. One thing it does do, is make very clear that people are selfish. I could buy a coffee every day, or make a donation that would (on average) save one life in Africa. And yet I chose to buy the coffee anyway. As a believer in classical economics, I have to conclude that I am that selfish.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#75
This subject was covered recently in "Assholes, A Theory", by Aaron James. This is a serious study of assholes and why they rise to the top in certain types of organizations. It's not a joke. It's worth reading.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note on Nietzche: In Thus Spake Zarathrusa, the "uberman" concept is (maybe) considered a positive that humanity should work towards in the absence of belief in God, and I think it can still be understood as such. The problem is that, in the absence of God, there is no absolute morality that is not the result of an arbitrary choice. When the "uberman" arises, he/she creates a new morality, which is needed in the mo…

The Übermensch realises that the pre-existing god-based morality was in itelf fully arbitrary, as it was invented by the weak to defend themselves against the predations of the powerful. There's not really any way to avoid the necessity of making an arbitrary decision about which values to promote and live for, because even to stick with the status quo is an arbitrary decision to live by originally arbitrary values.

Good comment. I agree.

There is no way to avoid the necessity of making a value decision. Even if one chooses the "will of god", they still are making an arbitrary choice. (Never mind at this stage in history the vast smorgasbord of "divine wills" to choose from...).

It all comes down to human valuation. Create your own or follow someone else's. Inevitably.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#77

Following Betteridge's Law of Headlines, the answer the article answers is "no", but it is a qualified "no". Homo Economicus according to the article "is a creature of coldly calculated selfishness, dispassionately maximizing its best interests even if that comes at the expense of others". The researchers concluded: "We see a person who is intelligent, driven to excel and to dominate other people, and capable of impu…

Can you point to some other studies? This is an interesting topic.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#78
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when have the gods actually spoken? Seems likely what we really have in the words of the gods is simply a collection of more uberman psychopathy. Which leads us right back to the inevitability of lack of absolutes. Maybe we would be better off dealing with this as is?

Without getting too cheesy: I think the gods have spoken through the apparently "irrational" existence of (sorry for the cheesiness!) love, which I define as the the active valuing of other life as more valuable than or at least equal in value to your own. While this is a form of selflessness, I actually think this works in conjunction with the basic belief that human beings are ultimately self-interested, because I…

You make a valid point. Love is a powerful force. And cooperation does seem to overcome competition historically.

But you must admit, there are no shortage of psychopathic uberman talking about love and goodness to further their own ends....

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#79
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've touched on the strawman about HE, but you've misidentified the source. It is the Marxists that want you to believe the psychopath claim, in their desire to stereotype capitalism as blind greed. Good capitalists that understand economics will perfectly happily include happiness and such in the value functions they use, because it turns out economic theory stops functioning without that assumption; it's built in…

> You can not understand the anger about HE until you understand that Marxists desperately need humans to not behave "slightly irrationally under some circumstances" (the real scenario) but need humans to be profoundly irrational, so they can justify their handing over all sorts of power to the government so they can save everyone from themselves. You had me until that sentence. I don't think the Marxists need humans…

He's mixing up "Marxists" with "everyone other than anarcho-capitalists". Again. It's a depressingly common mistake.

Re: Is Homo Economicus a Psychopath?

#80
post #5

A better question might be "Is Homo Economicus a Strawman?" To which the answer is: yes, it is. Classical economics does not actually assert that individual humans behave in a purely rational and fully-informed manner. A more accurate premise is that groups of humans tend on average to act at least somewhat as if they were rationally well-informed. We have tools to determine what "rational" behavior might look like a…

> Classical economics does not actually assert that individual humans behave in a purely rational and fully-informed manner. The rational actor model underpinning classical economic theory (and much other social science theory) does, in fact, assert exactly this. Of course, the rational actor model is widely-understood to be at best a useful approximation to explain both baseline situations and against which real sit…

> An even more accurate premise is that in some common and important interactions, people tend to be on average be approximately well-informed

I think that's often an unwarranted step to take - I'm MUCH more comfortable with the "act as if" formulation than I would be asserting that people actually are even approximately "well-informed" in most contexts. (Or "rational", for that matter.)

To illustrate the problem, consider an industry which is at least somewhat competitive. There is a wide range of available business strategies. Some of these strategies are dumb, but it might not be obvious which. Companies still have to make decisions, so they pick strategies. They might copy a market leader, flip a coin, hire physicists, hire astrologers...but somehow they PICK A BUSINESS STRATEGY.

After a few years, the businesses that happened to pick a particularly DUMB strategy go bankrupt; their businesses collapse and get bought; resources get reallocated to better use.

After many rounds of this game, a LOT of fragile, unlucky, or dumb business strategies have failed. A few remain that seem to work pretty well, and every company still going is trying to follow one of the more-successful strategies.

We now have some idea which strategies work but don't necessarily know WHY. There is institutional wisdom ("we've always done it THIS way") in the winners that they themselves might not understand.

In short, the economic environment (given some simple premises) tends to select for being efficient, regardless of whether people understand why what they are doing is efficient. Figuring it all out does probably happen eventually, but the order of cause and effect might be reversed - you try out the strategy, see that it works, scale it up and perhaps THEN figure out why it works. That's why I can describe companies as acting "as if they were rationally well-informed" even though I know that the individuals involved not only do indeed have a bunch of random "behavioralist" biases (the usual criticism) but in many cases they may actually lack conscious deliberate knowledge of why they do what they do.

Post reply on HN