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Apple goes to war with the BBC

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#71

Post by qq66 »

sgnelson wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #2

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year. 60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

While admittedly, I know nothing about Apple's internal policies and how it tracks these workers and the hours they're working, I wonder how real those numbers are. What I see often (very often) is that people see data and they take the numbers at face value. Could it possibly be that in order to appease Apple, the suppliers are cooking the books on the hours their employees are working? Obviously, in terms of profit…

It should make you rethink buying any electronic product whatsoever, since Apple's supply-chain audits are, though insufficient, by far the most thorough of any company (since they face the most scrutiny).

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#72

Post by ghostDancer »

mcphage wrote: post #61
lucaspiller wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that the salary these workers get is probably less than half that. Last year, according to the Daily Mail (yeah...), they were being paid £180 ($300) per month [0]. The salary these workers get is a small percentage of the retail price of these devices, it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary and provide ethical working conditions. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/…

> it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary Well, Apple doesn't pay them any salary at all—they're not Apple employees.

Yes but they are deeply offended , if they're not their employees is not their problem, why feel offended? .

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#73

Post by mcphage »

ghostDancer wrote: post #72
mcphage wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary Well, Apple doesn't pay them any salary at all—they're not Apple employees.

Yes but they are deeply offended , if they're not their employees is not their problem, why feel offended? .

I get offended by plenty of things outside my direct sphere of influence, that aren't my problem. Most of them, I can't do anything about. But it's still upsetting.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#74

Post by notjackma »

rtpg wrote: post #2

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year. 60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

It's worse.

The documentary shows how Foxconn and Pegatron fake payroll slips so that long hours don't show up.

93% compliance is rubbish. Workers are forced to sign forms saying they consent to night shifts and overtime, when in fact overtime is mandatory.

Apple's required reporting is nothing more than window-dressing; lipstick on a pig.

Apple's release schedule of one big yearly event and 10 million units ready to ship on day 1 must bear some of the blame. Near impossible demands are being placed on manufacturers desperate to keep a lucrative contract, who in turn drive workers like slaves.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#75

Post by notjackma »

sgnelson wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #2

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year. 60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

While admittedly, I know nothing about Apple's internal policies and how it tracks these workers and the hours they're working, I wonder how real those numbers are. What I see often (very often) is that people see data and they take the numbers at face value. Could it possibly be that in order to appease Apple, the suppliers are cooking the books on the hours their employees are working? Obviously, in terms of profit…

Yes, the suppliers are faking the hours. They show this in the film.

    magnet:?xt=urn:btih:76291D1E48A0930CD649A42E3C7BD82F78E5EE16&dn=panorama+s62e44+apples+broken+promises+hdtv+x264+ftp+ettv&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337%2Fannounce
r

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#76

Post by notjackma »

LaSombra wrote: post #4
rtpg wrote: post #2

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year. 60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

> In an email to around 5,000 staff across the UK, Apple senior vice president of operations Jeff Williams said both himself and the chief executive were "deeply offended by the suggestion that Apple would break a promise to the workers in our supply chain or mislead our customers in any way". Well, that makes 7% being lied to. Did I understand this correctly?

Clearly Tim Cook and senior management are in a bind.

They keep telling people they're geniuses ('only Apple could do this') and industry leaders in environmental practices.

The BBC film has shown this to be false so either Tim Cook is a pathological liar or he doesn't have a clue what goes on in the supply chain. Meaning he's not the genius the fawning press like to make him out to be.

The best quote in the film is when an Indonesian supplier is asked what he thinks of Apple's envieonmental policy. His response: "Apple bullshit. Bullshit Apple.". The subtitles make this an instant internet meme.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#77

Post by sgnelson »

qq66 wrote: post #71
sgnelson wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While admittedly, I know nothing about Apple's internal policies and how it tracks these workers and the hours they're working, I wonder how real those numbers are. What I see often (very often) is that people see data and they take the numbers at face value. Could it possibly be that in order to appease Apple, the suppliers are cooking the books on the hours their employees are working? Obviously, in terms of profit…

It should make you rethink buying any electronic product whatsoever, since Apple's supply-chain audits are, though insufficient, by far the most thorough of any company (since they face the most scrutiny).

Rather, I would say, "it should make me rethink buying any electronic product _not manufactured in the US or other developed world countries that have much higher, stricter standards on labor conditions_..."

Not everything is manufactured in China (though I certainly don't know of any laptops not made in China, and only a select few phones.)

edit: oh, and also, my main point was "how good are those audits?"

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#78

Post by sgnelson »

ceejayoz wrote: post #53
Joeboy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would contend that Foxconn employees' overall suicide rate is likely to be larger than their reported workplace suicide rate, for reasons that are presumably obvious. Edit: Looking at http://www.wellness.com/news/6427/us-workplace-suicides-jump... , it looks like in the US workplace suicides are less than 1% of overall suicides. Doubtless different in China, but hopefully makes the point that comparing the two stat…

My understanding from news reports - correct me if I'm wrong - is that Foxconn employees tend to live in dorms and spend most of their time on company grounds. Even if they're all going home and committing suicide there, the only evidence I've seen put forward for the supposed wave of suicides is the workplace ones. The stats there don't back up the claims.

Uh, does the fact that these employees tend to live in company owned dorms (ever heard of Mill Villages, "Company Store") and spend most of their time on company grounds not within and of itself something to question? Or even the fact that this has something to do with a (possible) higher suicide rate? Can you imagine living within a few hundred feet of your 60 hour manufacturing job with 3 other people in a 10 by 10 room, no time to visit family or have fun, enjoy yourself?

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#79

Post by ceejayoz »

sgnelson wrote: post #78
ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding from news reports - correct me if I'm wrong - is that Foxconn employees tend to live in dorms and spend most of their time on company grounds. Even if they're all going home and committing suicide there, the only evidence I've seen put forward for the supposed wave of suicides is the workplace ones. The stats there don't back up the claims.

Uh, does the fact that these employees tend to live in company owned dorms (ever heard of Mill Villages, "Company Store") and spend most of their time on company grounds not within and of itself something to question? Or even the fact that this has something to do with a (possible) higher suicide rate? Can you imagine living within a few hundred feet of your 60 hour manufacturing job with 3 other people in a 10 by 10…

I think it's both a problem companies like Apple can do a lot more to address and likely to be significantly better than the alternatives most of the employees have available.

People aren't joining Foxconn from jobs where they've got 40 hours a week and vacation time. They're often joining from rural areas with subsistence farming, poverty, shittier jobs, etc. International attention on Apple and Foxconn likely prevent at least some abuses that are rampant elsewhere in China.

All that said, there's no reason we in places like the US can't pay $20 more for an iPhone.

Re: Apple goes to war with the BBC

#80

Post by [deleted] »

lucaspiller wrote: post #57
Retric wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option. IMO, when it comes to exploitation pay, working conditions, and irregular work schedules can be far more exploitive than simple hours worked. Also, dorm style housing next to a factory dramatically cut down on commute times…

Bear in mind that the salary these workers get is probably less than half that. Last year, according to the Daily Mail (yeah...), they were being paid £180 ($300) per month [0]. The salary these workers get is a small percentage of the retail price of these devices, it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary and provide ethical working conditions. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/…

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