Toyota Embraces Fuel-Cell Cars for Post-Gasoline Future • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota Embraces Fuel-Cell Cars for Post-Gasoline Future

#41

Post by throwketchup » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 2:24 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #18

jobu wrote: post #9

There have been two major hurdles for the development of hydrogen fuel-cell cars: 1) storing the hydrogen - hydrogen is extremely corrosive, and not very energy dense compared to gasoline 2) variable energy output - fuel cells are good at producing a steady, constant amount of power, but the power requirements of a car can be quite variable (especially for city driving) Anyone have details on how Toyota overcame thes…

On #1, energy density isn't a huge problem; sure, hydrogen is worse than gasoline in energy:volume (though much better in energy:mass), but its energy:volume is better than that of existing battery technologies -- this is one of the advantages FCVs have over battery-powered EVs. #2 is similar to problems solved by Toyota's gas-electric hybrid design, and Toyota's Fuel Cell Vehicle's back to their earlier demonstratio…

On #1, it actually is a problem. Look at the range of the fuel cell cars that have been released or announced. None of them have even as much range as a Tesla Model S (and they cost more...).

It also presents a problem for refueling. There is no reason to expect a hydrogen car to refill any faster than a natural gas car (and plenty of reasons to think it will take longer to get the same amount of range). If you aren't familiar with natural gas cars, take a look at the Edmonds's long term review of the Honda Civic NX.

Frankly, I don't see how hydrogen cars are going to compete with electrics in terms of range, performance or refuuling time. Who is going to buy them? And we are subsidizing the hydrogen infrastructure, why exactly?

Re: Toyota Embraces Fuel-Cell Cars for Post-Gasoline Future

#42

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 2:33 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #6

Good that there's serious money being sunk into alternatives to electric cars, more is always good. But I'm seriously tired of the fact that all articles about fuel-cells enthusiastically exclaims that "it's only byproduct is water!!!!", as if hydrogen was some sort of magic alternative to hydrocarbons. It's not, it's an energy transmission medium, not an energy source. For fuel-cell cars to work, you would need to h…

[deleted]

Re: Toyota Embraces Fuel-Cell Cars for Post-Gasoline Future

#43

Post by upofadown » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 12:19 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #15

MrGuyUser wrote: post #3

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, but it's very rare on earth so it has to be manufactured. So the oil companies totally would love you to switch from the oil they will sooner or later not be able to fracking get anymore to hydrogen which they can raise prices on until the day when nuclear fusion becomes something they could sell again as long as it remains expensive enough to be sellable. Hydrog…

They don't mention the price because current systems cannot accurately measure the amount of H2 being dispensed into the car. Every Fuel Cell car comes with free fuel coordinated by the manufacturer.

Speaking as someone who once worked on a H2 dispenser with a reasonably accurate meter, this is by the choice of the test program. Even without a meter you can figure out roughly how much H2 ends up in the car just by checking the tank pressure at the start and end of the fill. If it is a test program they are going to know the size of the tank (assuming that they don't have a working data link for some reason).

Re: Toyota Embraces Fuel-Cell Cars for Post-Gasoline Future

#44

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Dec 20, 2014, 8:09 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #20

henrikschroder wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference there lies in that the electrical infrastructure can be overhauled gradually, as electric car adoption increases. We already have something that is useful to the current EV owners, and it can be made better. I'm also not convinced that the utilities are correct, current peak use is probably a lot higher than what a fleet of slow-charging vehicles would consume at night. In the case of hydrogen infrastr…

> In the case of hydrogen infrastructure, we have nothing. Well, more than nothing, but not a lot just now. Though more is in development. > If you're the first guy to buy a hydrogen car, you can't fill it up anywhere I'm going to guess that the first several tens of thousands of people to buy consumer electric vehicles in the US will be clustered around the places where the existing infrastructure is [1], so that th…

Oh wow, I did not know this existed! That's great, nothing's better than healthy competition!