Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids • Hacker News Board

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#11

Post by btown » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 4:53 AM UTC

jerf wrote: post #8

windlep wrote: post #5

The more elite the school, the more elite the ppl you meet. The financial outcomes can be easily explained solely on the networking effects of meeting ppl from more powerful sectors of society. No one sends their kids to an Ivy league school to get "Super smart", its to hang around the "right group" for later influence and networking with the "right people".

If you are going to send your kid to one of those, be sure to clearly explain to them that is the point, lest they fall into the trap of studying and getting good grades at the expense of networking. (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which parts of that are sarcastic, and how much. Frankly I'm not sure myself.)

Just make sure your kid studies just enough so the geeks don't think he's a completely good-for-nothing party bro. Because he's going to need to hire them as the developers for his next-big-thing startups. After all, every head-buried-in-the-sand developer needs a well-connected idea guy to part the clouds and let the sun shine through, right?

(I, too, leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which parts of that are sarcastic, and how much. Frankly I'm not sure myself.)

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#12

Post by imgabe » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 4:53 AM UTC

jreimers wrote: post #3

So 11% of people who attended public universities are "thriving", and 4% of people who attended private universities are thriving. That means somewhere between 89 and 96 percent of people who attended university are not thriving. This paints a pretty dismal picture of the utility of a university degree for those who want to thrive, white middle class kids or otherwise.

It doesn't tell you anything about whether people who didn't go to college are thriving, though.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#13

Post by bottled_poe » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 4:56 AM UTC

loganadams_ wrote: post #10

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

It is no surprise that the students on scholarships are typically more successful in the long run. But the reason for the success is not only the college.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#14

Post by meddlepal » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 4:58 AM UTC

jerf wrote: post #8

windlep wrote: post #5

The more elite the school, the more elite the ppl you meet. The financial outcomes can be easily explained solely on the networking effects of meeting ppl from more powerful sectors of society. No one sends their kids to an Ivy league school to get "Super smart", its to hang around the "right group" for later influence and networking with the "right people".

If you are going to send your kid to one of those, be sure to clearly explain to them that is the point, lest they fall into the trap of studying and getting good grades at the expense of networking. (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which parts of that are sarcastic, and how much. Frankly I'm not sure myself.)

It would actually be incredibly practical advice, but it's also some truly depressing advice.

"Kid, nobody cares how smart you are. Just smile and nod and you'll go further than you can imagine."

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#15

Post by dap » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:09 AM UTC

jerf wrote: post #8

windlep wrote: post #5

The more elite the school, the more elite the ppl you meet. The financial outcomes can be easily explained solely on the networking effects of meeting ppl from more powerful sectors of society. No one sends their kids to an Ivy league school to get "Super smart", its to hang around the "right group" for later influence and networking with the "right people".

If you are going to send your kid to one of those, be sure to clearly explain to them that is the point, lest they fall into the trap of studying and getting good grades at the expense of networking. (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which parts of that are sarcastic, and how much. Frankly I'm not sure myself.)

FWIW, in my experience, those goals weren't at all exclusive of each other. I went to one of those schools, studied hard, and did well. The CS program had a strong feeling of community, particularly among undergraduates who worked as TAs, and from that I developed a network of smart people (including people several years older and younger than me) who also studied hard and did well. There's no doubt I've benefited from that. But the network I'm talking about isn't a prototypical "old boys" network, and it wasn't developed by shmoozing at networking events. I feel very lucky for the opportunity to have the experience.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#16

Post by jordanb » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:23 AM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #13

loganadams_ wrote: post #10

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

It is no surprise that the students on scholarships are typically more successful in the long run. But the reason for the success is not only the college.

> It is no surprise that the students on scholarships are typically more successful in the long run. But the reason for the success is not only the college.

Private colleges give out scholarships like candy. It's a form of price discrimination.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#17

Post by mbesto » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:32 AM UTC

jerf wrote: post #8

windlep wrote: post #5

The more elite the school, the more elite the ppl you meet. The financial outcomes can be easily explained solely on the networking effects of meeting ppl from more powerful sectors of society. No one sends their kids to an Ivy league school to get "Super smart", its to hang around the "right group" for later influence and networking with the "right people".

If you are going to send your kid to one of those, be sure to clearly explain to them that is the point, lest they fall into the trap of studying and getting good grades at the expense of networking. (I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which parts of that are sarcastic, and how much. Frankly I'm not sure myself.)

Pretty much every job I know of outside of our little SV tech bubble will reward you based on your college GPA. Unless something has changed in the last 8 years, a majority of my accounting/finance friends all were vetted on interviews and GPA when applying to E&Y, KPMG, Goldman and the like. Also, it's all about who you know. These type of people represent the majority of white-collar, white college graduate jobs out there - not tech.

Note - that being said, I've interviewed quite a few young graduates recently and for the life of me, I don't remember a single time I looked at someone's GPA. But that's because in tech I'm trying my best to hire young people based on merit. All that matters is whether you can ship code.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#18

Post by _RPM » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:39 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #2

I tend to wish this were true, because it would be better for the world even if neutral-to-negative for me. In truth, though: pedigree shouldn't matter, but it does. Among the top 100 offerings or so, the differences in quality of education are very small. The differences in quality of students are pretty small. But connections matter, and even if Harvard student's aren't all shockingly brilliant, the dumb ones are c…

Let's see the research that supports your claims.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#19

Post by benesch » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:40 AM UTC

loganadams_ wrote: post #10

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

Interesting. That's directly opposite what I've seen. My close high school friends nearly all went to Ivy League-quality schools: Yale, Penn, MIT, Caltech, etc. Some of us are happy. Most of us are succeeding. A few of us are excelling. (Personally, I'm struggling. I have this irrepressible notion that liberal arts are a waste of my time, no matter how hard I try to subscribe to the learning-for-learning's-sake theory, which is not great for grades.) We're all stressed out of our minds.

Three of my equally, if not more, intelligent friends ended up at public institutions or "second-" or "third-tier" schools. Unequivocally, they're happier. They're thriving, as the article puts it. Student council presidents, top of their class, balanced social life, good job or graduate school prospects.

Of course, this is all anecdata. Me as much as you. The article at least has some semblance of data.

In the end, it's an optimization problem. What is higher education optimizing for? Salary? That seems myopic. Happiness? That seems overly hedonistic. Maturity? Impact upon the world? Good luck measuring that.

College is only not worth it if you don't get out of it what you want. Most of us go to college because society tells us it leads to a "better life"--which is an inherently unquantifiable notion.

Re: Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle class kids

#20

Post by klochner » Fri, Dec 19, 2014, 5:49 AM UTC

loganadams_ wrote: post #10

I have a tough time with this article. I understand what it is trying to say. The costs are ridiculous. But what I see among my friends is that those who went to large public flagship schools got lost, and had a much tougher time. However, those who went to smaller private schools on scholarships built better connections with professors, and tended to do better long run.

My experience is that top students can get an equivalent if not better education at large public universities. (I went to Duke and Michigan)

Public universities are much less forgiving, which means mediocre or unmotivated students get crushed in cases they would get hand-holding (and A- grades) at a private university.

As for connections, they're important and you get better ones at top schools, unequivocally, but you don't need them for many careers.