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Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

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Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#81
post #5

I remember seeing this on TV and not understanding why microsoft was threatened with a fine if they ship IE by default on their products. Actually I still don't. Nobody ever stopped me from downloading another browser on windows, anyone who wants to do it will do it. So people did have a choice, they just didn't know they had it, and it's their problem, not microsoft's! Could someone explain this to me?

I thought the original reason wasn't that Microsoft was shipping IE with Windows per say, but that they were telling OEMs that they weren't allowed to pre-install Netscape if they wanted to keep their sweet Windows OEM license deals. Am I thinking of the wrong case?

[deleted]

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#82
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You needed to be around in the 1990s to understand this. :) Its sort of like Google search now where when you search for "ann arbor map" you get a giant beautiful link to another Google property and a few riffraff links to other competitors that basically nobody ever clicks on because it would take effort. This is exactly where Microsoft was in the 90s / early 2000s with browsers. They had a dominant desktop share an…

I was there in the 90s. Only having access to Windows when the Internet became common, guess how I went about learning there were other browsers out there and downloading Netscape? How much more difficult would that have been if IE wasn't included by default with Windows?

Not that much harder since software demo disks often came bundled with consumer magazines.

In fact back in the 90s, my Linux box would only receive updates via magazine cover disks.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There wasn't a whole lot of evidence that MS was trying to explicitly kill for-profit TCP stack vendors.

Well that's true, my straw man doesn't quite stand up in this case. However it still doesn't explain why Internet Explorer was the target when there is so much other software that was bundled with Windows, which too had for profit competitors? Those people who exclusively used Internet Explorer as "the Internet" would too have used the bundled mail client (I can't remember what it was called back in the day) exclusiv…

The original complaint for the US case remains available online from the DoJ: http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f1700/1763.htm

There are four bases for the complaint, two under Sec. 1 of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and two under Sec. 2 of the Act.

1. Unlawful Exclusive Dealing and Other Exclusionary Agreements in Violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act (deals with ISPs, Internet Content Providers, and others that traded favorable promotional placement in the then-monopoly Windows OS for commitments not to license, promote, or distribute non-Microsoft products, particularly browsers.)

2. Unlawful Tying in Violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act (distributing the browser, a separate product based on market demand, etc., with its monopoly Windows OS system.)

3. Monopolization of the PC Operating Systems Market in Violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act (willfully maintaining monopoly power over that market by "by anticompetitive and unreasonably exclusionary conduct.")

4. Attempted Monopolization of the Internet Browser Market in Violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act (targetting "software products that have the potential to compete with or facilitate the development of products to compete with PC operating systems and thereby to erode Microsoft's Windows operating system monopoly" by way of "including tying and unreasonably exclusionary agreements, in order to obtain a monopoly in the Internet browser market".)

Note that a key issue in all of these is Microsoft's then-existing monopoly power in the PC OS market and how it was defending or leveraging that in different markets -- without that monopoly power, much of what they were doing would not have even arguably been an antitrust issue.

Browser+OS wasn't the issue, it was one of the mechanisms -- unreasonable and anticompetitive action to maintain an existing monopoly, and to leverage that monopoly into a monopoly in another market, was the issue.

> However it still doesn't explain why Internet Explorer was the target when there is so much other software that was bundled with Windows, which too had for profit competitors?

Because the browser was the area where the government felt they had the best case for two key features: (1) that the tying, etc., was intended to leverage the existing monopoly to monopolize another market, and, (2) that the tying, etc., was intended to neutralize a threat to Microsoft's existing monopoly.

Bundling two products together isn't generally illegal. Doing so as a means to leverage a monopoly in one market to monopolize another, or to defuse a threat to an existing monopoly (and, a fortiori, to serve both purposes simultaneously) is a different story.

> Those people who exclusively used Internet Explorer as "the Internet" would too have used the bundled mail client (I can't remember what it was called back in the day) exclusively too and seen that as "the email"?

The bundled email client wasn't an issue because it didn't exist yet -- Outlook Express wasn't bundled with Windows until Windows 98, which was still pending at the time the lawsuit was drafted (the complaint notes at para. 57: "Beginning in or around June 1998, Microsoft will introduce to the market the latest version of its operating system for Intel-based PCs, Windows 98.")

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there was anything else bundled with Windows that explicitly targeted other for-profit competitors at that time. Dr-DOS and the Berkley screen saver stuff are two other situations that spring to mind, both of which resulted in legal cases, but the size/scope of MS by the time the Netscape thing came around was probably the tipping point (considering their previous behavior already demonstrated a pattern…

It is amusing however how it is a practice now that all major technology companies partake in. For example Google & Apple constantly take ideas from a 3rd party apps and integrate them for free into Android/iOS.

The legal issue wasn't "taking ideas from 3rd party apps and integrating them for free into" Windows.

It was taking anticompetitive steps to defend an existing monopoly, and to leverage an existing monopoly to monopolize another market.

Its like complaining that one person gets arrested for shooting a gun when another doesn't, not noting that what the first person was actually arrested for was murder by way of a gun, and what the second person was doing was shooting targets on a shooting range.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that you can still have Chrome (well, Chromium) compatibility without having to run Chrome, as demonstrated by the amount of webkit browsers in ArchLinux's repos: $ pacman -Ss webkit browser extra/epiphany 3.14.2-1 (gnome) [installed] A GNOME web browser based on the WebKit rendering engine. extra/kwebkitpart 1.3.4-3 A WebKit browser component for KDE extra/qtwebkit 2.3.4-1 [installed] An open source web…

Chrome is no longer webkit, and they have chosen to drop basically everything not directly applicable to chrome in blink.

To be honest you're just arguing semantics as Blink is a fork of the same webkit components that Chrome was using previously. So little has changed from a rendering perspective.

Given the amount of redundant code in webkit due to Google and Apple pushing the library in slightly different directions, it does make some sense to fork it. And it's really no different to Apple forking webkit themselves (webkit2).

However when the forks diverge more in the future, your point will be more relevant (just as the difference between kHTML and webkit is now quite pronounced).

In any case, I did reference Blink in my first post. So your point isn't lost on me :)

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under anti-trust law, it is illegal for a company to use their monopoly power in one business as a competitive edge in another separate market. Therefore, the entire argument turns on two things: (1) was Windows a monopoly (2) was IE an integral part of Windows (hence not a product competing in another market). Since Windows, for all intents and purposes, was a monopoly, a huge part of the discussion was about whethe…

But courts should be in the position of deciding whether specific actions constitute abuse of monopoly.

Sure, that is the role of the courts. However, in this case, that distinction rested on the definition of what constituted a certain peice of technology and the ability to predict how that technology was going to evolve. The courts had no way of knowing the answer to this question. To their credit, I honestly doubt the companies themselves even knew the answer at that time.

This situation was very different than when an oil company uses their monopolistic position in refineries to choke competing exploration and retail companies. Or when a manufacturer of telephone equipment uses the profits from its monopoly in that business to drive out competitors in its telephone service business. Clearly, in these scenarios, it was clear (and remains clear) that the monopolists were using resources from one business where they were clearly dominant to out-compete other companies in separate (even if adjacent) businesses.

Technology is a very tricky area for the law largely because it is fast changing. Situations are cropping up far faster than the laws can be modified to address them and so the courts are pretty much forced to sand-off the edges of existing statutes that were designed for other situations and hope for the best.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has no control over splitting up Google or the ability to make that happen. As far as Android goes, Google has no monopoly on the phone business.

He meant there are talks in google to split the company in order to avoid application of monopoly laws.

No, I meant what I said. Specifically, I was referring to this[1], where the EP says regulators should consider splitting up search engines from other commercial services.

That doesn't mean I believe they well split them up - nor does the resolution say that, it's just a recommendation - but it does mean they're increasing the pressure on Google, and so potentially on Android as well.

[1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/content/2014...

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But courts should be in the position of deciding whether specific actions constitute abuse of monopoly.

Sure, that is the role of the courts. However, in this case, that distinction rested on the definition of what constituted a certain peice of technology and the ability to predict how that technology was going to evolve. The courts had no way of knowing the answer to this question. To their credit, I honestly doubt the companies themselves even knew the answer at that time. This situation was very different than when…

You seem to be saying that the evolution of technology over the next 20 years had something to say about whether Microsoft was abusing a monopoly situation at the time of the trial. I don't think that's a valid way of applying the law.

Furthermore, a big part of Microsoft's motivation for making the browser "part of the OS" was exactly to try to blur that line for the court. I am therefore highly skeptical of using "it's now part of the OS" as a reason that the court got it wrong.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He meant there are talks in google to split the company in order to avoid application of monopoly laws.

No, I meant what I said. Specifically, I was referring to this[1], where the EP says regulators should consider splitting up search engines from other commercial services. That doesn't mean I believe they well split them up - nor does the resolution say that, it's just a recommendation - but it does mean they're increasing the pressure on Google, and so potentially on Android as well. [1] http://www.europarl.europa.e…

That link says nothing about anything you just said and doesn't mention Google directly either other than the general reference of "search engines".

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is no longer webkit, and they have chosen to drop basically everything not directly applicable to chrome in blink.

To be honest you're just arguing semantics as Blink is a fork of the same webkit components that Chrome was using previously. So little has changed from a rendering perspective. Given the amount of redundant code in webkit due to Google and Apple pushing the library in slightly different directions, it does make some sense to fork it. And it's really no different to Apple forking webkit themselves (webkit2). However…

"Blink is a fork of the same webkit components that Chrome was using previously. So little has changed from a rendering perspective."

Nothing could be further from the truth.

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