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Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

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Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#21
post #5

I remember seeing this on TV and not understanding why microsoft was threatened with a fine if they ship IE by default on their products. Actually I still don't. Nobody ever stopped me from downloading another browser on windows, anyone who wants to do it will do it. So people did have a choice, they just didn't know they had it, and it's their problem, not microsoft's! Could someone explain this to me?

The idea - and I'm just explaining it, not advocating nor criticizing - is that when you have a overwhelming control in one market (in this case, Windows), you can't use that to push your way to the top of another market, since it's stifling the competition and reducing consumer welfare.

> when you have a overwhelming control in one market, you can't use that to push your way to the top of another market, ... stifling the competition

Microsoft not only used its OS monopoly to stifle competition, in many cases, it used it to kill many competing products and services. Steve Balmer once boasted that he'll stop at nothing to kill Netscape.

If you were around during the Clinton years when the US filed an anti-trust case against MS, you'd have been surprised at the tactics that Bill Gates and Co used to kill competition.

Those guys were despicable.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well... you know what a browser is (and you also know that there are alternatives). Most people don't. Most people don't open the browser, they "go to the Internet"; the browser is the "Internet". If a dominant player bundles their browser (as a component) in their OS, people become less and less aware of the browser as a possible and separate "product", and will of course use the dominant one as default - this is (a…

But the same is true for the calculator app, or the file manager. Granted, the web is used for a lot more than those... but I don't see why the browser is singled out as something needing special legal treatment.

> but I don't see why the browser is singled out as something needing special legal treatment

Does your calculator interact with anything else but your computer? Same with file manager (SMB excluded)?

Now lets look at the browser, it interacts with different servers, via the HTTP protocol, and the documents they serve via many different technologies such as HTML, Javascript, Java, XML, Flash, along with others. 'Back in the day' Microsoft did a very strong push to tie IE in with Windows, then push developers to use ActiveX on websites so they would only work with Microsoft products. There was no HTML5 multi-platform interoperability, if you wanted to visit a huge number of sites (many government ones too), you used Windows on X86, and you used IE. Even worse, after the early versions of IE, they dug its hooks deep in to the operating system so it became WindowsIE, you didn't have one without the other.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#23
post #5

I remember seeing this on TV and not understanding why microsoft was threatened with a fine if they ship IE by default on their products. Actually I still don't. Nobody ever stopped me from downloading another browser on windows, anyone who wants to do it will do it. So people did have a choice, they just didn't know they had it, and it's their problem, not microsoft's! Could someone explain this to me?

Well... you know what a browser is (and you also know that there are alternatives). Most people don't. Most people don't open the browser, they "go to the Internet"; the browser is the "Internet". If a dominant player bundles their browser (as a component) in their OS, people become less and less aware of the browser as a possible and separate "product", and will of course use the dominant one as default - this is (a…

Adding to that, there's an argument to be made that the browser ballot helped make the Web a much richer place.

The reason I say that is that it allowed Chrome to make serious inroads and become a much more dominant browser. Chrome comes from Google, a company whose entire business model revolves around getting people to spend more time on the Web. So they have a vested interest in pushing the Web toward being as rich a content platform as possible so that people spend more time in their Web browser and not in other applications.

So they did that. They made Javascript more performant, they pushed new standards for producing more attractive and responsive pages, etc. And makers of other browsers, who might not have done the same because they're not driven by similar incentives, had to start hurrying to keep up.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#24
post #3

Good riddance -- that screen was nothing more than a historic artifact at this point. With Microsoft's monopoly on web-enabled devices finally broken by Android/iOS, not to mention the emergence of Chrome on Windows desktops, IE-dominance has finally more or less ended[1]. [1] http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

  IE-dominance has finally more or less ended
... in favor of a Google/Chrome-dominance. Not much of a victory for the end user.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#26
post #3

Good riddance -- that screen was nothing more than a historic artifact at this point. With Microsoft's monopoly on web-enabled devices finally broken by Android/iOS, not to mention the emergence of Chrome on Windows desktops, IE-dominance has finally more or less ended[1]. [1] http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl

IE-dominance has finally more or less ended ... in favor of a Google/Chrome-dominance. Not much of a victory for the end user.

Did you even look at the browser stats link I posted? No browser has a majority usage share anymore.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#28
post #25

I'm almost equally scared of the Chrome dominance now as I was for IE6.

I'm starting to see sites which work in Chrome but not Firefox - and not because of fancy web standards Firefox hasn't caught up with, but web page bugs showing the developers haven't bothered testing in other browsers.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#29

Why isn't Apple forced to the same deal with iOS? Not only do browsers not have the same prominence but they actually have to use WebView for rendering. Not to mention the other apps Apple refuses to approve because of "duplication".

Because Microsoft was found to be a monopoly that abused its power over the marketplace to extend to other markets. Apple hasn't been in such a lawsuit, yet. I don't necessarily agree with such policies. For example the EU is thinking of breaking up Google because supposedly local players cannot compete, with inferior products in a market that Google created, but that's not mentioned. Of course, iOS does suck because…

Which market, exactly, did Google create? I can't think of anything Google did which was actually novel.

Re: Deal forcing Microsoft to offer browser choices ends

#30
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the same is true for the calculator app, or the file manager. Granted, the web is used for a lot more than those... but I don't see why the browser is singled out as something needing special legal treatment.

> but I don't see why the browser is singled out as something needing special legal treatment Does your calculator interact with anything else but your computer? Same with file manager (SMB excluded)? Now lets look at the browser, it interacts with different servers, via the HTTP protocol, and the documents they serve via many different technologies such as HTML, Javascript, Java, XML, Flash, along with others. 'Back…

I don't quite see what interaction over the Internet has to do with the issue. Microsoft Office is regularly bundled with new Windows computers as a trial, or basic license. Could that not be seen as anti competitive?

I could argue that the TCP/IP stack is "bundled" with the operating system, and it's something that's very difficult to change (if not impossible without recompiling the kernel). Network engineers have probably had to put up with different TCP/IP stacks using different congestion control algorithms, impacting fairness of bandwidth usage on their networks. So by the same pretense, shouldn't TCP/IP stacks require the same choice that Microsoft were required to offer with browsers?

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