Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard? • Hacker News Board

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#31

Post by niels_olson » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 4:47 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #25

ssivark wrote: post #13

The most crucial distinction where paper wins is that writing is a "nonlinear" process whereas typing with the tools we have today is "linear". You could use something like a mindmapping tool, but you're again constrained to a fairly rigid format rather than giving you the ease of switching. Eg: you can write down a bunch of things and draw arrows between them. Or draw a graph/sketch. Or draw a link between the thing…

> I can think while I write, but not while I type // To me handwriting is more rigid in that one can't rearrange thoughts without drawing big arrows and having lots of crossings out. But then I only type and don't hand-write so perhaps I've lost track of what I'm missing out on. Do you touch type? I don't by the strictest definition but I don't look at the keyboard and can have a conversation whilst typing - I'm not…

I did a survey of my classmates' study habits in medical school. Two of the habits most strongly associated with good performance were taking hand-written notes and reviewing them. The worst habit was typing in class. I heard Clay Shirky has even banned screens in his lectures because he found a "second hand smoking" effect: the person next to the person with the laptop had poorer performance.

I think a major part of handwritten notes is that it does force you to select what you're actually going to write down, and that is an inherently synthetic activity. Synthetic activities lead to more effective memory formation.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#32

Post by fsloth » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 5:03 AM UTC

A quote from the article: "...a paper published in April in the journal Psychological Science... claim that note-taking with a pen, rather than a laptop, gives students a better grasp of the subject."

I find it odd that when some praise handwriting as a great mental tool, others obviously consider this as a some sort of ... ailment?

I assure you, handwriting is not a symptom of slow typing speed, and it does not need to be remedied by typing faster.

With Vim I can touch type quite fast enough. But the typing speed is useless unless I can understand what I am supposed to write.

Writing on paper improves my thinking to a point where I'm obviously partially incapacitated when implementing algorithms if I don't have a pen and paper at hand. And this is no exaggeration, I've tried in the past to go long periods without paper.

There is a threshold in algorithmic complexity after which I cannot hold all the variables in my head that I need to work out the solution.

The paper and pen feels like giving me 3x amount the working memory and increased reasoning skills.

Maybe the act of handwriting stimulates more areas of the brain, thus creating more associations along the way?

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#33

Post by sumo » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:17 AM UTC

adwf wrote: post #12

I've got two points to consider with this: 1) On a proper keyboard, I'm faster typing than writing. But on a "soft" keyboard like a tablet/phone (which I'm more likely to have with me), I'm much slower. This is probably due to a combination of inherent response times in the screen, and some increased degree of lag between keystrokes to aid touch detection. 2) When writing, I can easily jot down things like rough grap…

I actually research this kind of thing a lot, Pen and paper is surely great, and passing it physically, and being offline are certainly its benefits.

https://collusionapp.com/ tries to solve the quick sketches and the sharing, which is the winnable battle, the fact that pen and paper is tangible can be won with tablets, but my company tried that, we made a pen and I thought it was good, but it didn't really stick. That might have been for a variety of confusing reasons though.

One thing though is that we are definitely getting closer, and I can at least attest that both hand writing and typing have their place, and the digital and real life hand writing also have their own special places.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#34

Post by kondro » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:19 AM UTC

I personally find the act of handwriting something helps me recall it later. I barely even read-back my handwritten notes because they become irrelevant almost the moment I write them down.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#35

Post by MichaelCrawford » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:20 AM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

cwe wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There's just something about the pen and paper right there, ready to go, always. Even on a phone, with the app open, you'll probably have to unlock the screen first, and tap or something to bring up the keyboard and start typing.

This assumes that you actually have a pen and paper with you at all times. I don't know about you, but there are a lot of times when I don't. Also, the amount of time it takes to unlock my phone's screen, open Evernote, and create a new note is actually less than that required to open my bag (if I have it with me), take out a notebook, open another compartment, take out a pen, close both compartments, open the notebo…

With a paper notebook and a pen, it's easier to record different kinds of information, such as data tables, different kinds of graphics, rough sketches, detailed drawings such as dimensioned mechanical drawings, mathematical expressions, small amounts of source code in addition to text.

Now you can do all these things on a computer, but you will either need to switch between several different apps, or have one very large, complex and likely costly app.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#36

Post by MichaelCrawford » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:21 AM UTC

kondro wrote: post #34

I personally find the act of handwriting something helps me recall it later. I barely even read-back my handwritten notes because they become irrelevant almost the moment I write them down.

When I was in school I found that I rarely read my notes after class, not even when studying for exams. However the act of writing notes helps me follow lectures.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#37

Post by ObviousScience » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:23 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #32

A quote from the article: "...a paper published in April in the journal Psychological Science... claim that note-taking with a pen, rather than a laptop, gives students a better grasp of the subject." I find it odd that when some praise handwriting as a great mental tool, others obviously consider this as a some sort of ... ailment? I assure you, handwriting is not a symptom of slow typing speed, and it does not need…

I type rather quickly (fast enough that I can type faster than I can compose), but still prefer pen and paper when reasoning.

It's because the pen and paper mixes diagramming, text, and non-linear note taking in a completely different way.

There's just no good typing analog to drawing a box around something, and then an arrow to another boxed item with some notes next to the line about the relationship. There's no good typing analog to writing notes off to the side, and then notes on those notes, and arrows between them. (There are okay mouse analogs, but constantly shifting my hands from keyboard to mouse is fairly annoying; much more so than just writing.)

It's not that I can get a computer to do those things with various editors, but rather, that typing in the instructions to do them is fundamentally mentally different than actually doing the motions of the boxes and arrows by hand. (My pet theory is that my brain is using information about the tactile movements to store relationship information in a way that it doesn't understand for digital documents, but I am not a psychologist.)

This difference has nothing to do with typing speed, but rather, the nature of the input device you're using.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#38

Post by MichaelCrawford » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:25 AM UTC

pcmonk wrote: post #26

andreastt wrote: post #15

I'm constantly bewildered by this notion that writing by hand is slow and thus bad, and that typing is fast and consequently good. In my daily routine work as a programmer I find most of my work consists of thinking rather than writing. Or to twist the words a little: I don't think my typing impairs my creative ability, because the hard part of my job is thinking out the right solution. If you can't hold that thought…

I see this argument come up all the time to argue against typing faster, learning a decent editor, and now typing vs writing. Like with you, the hardest part of my job, and also the most time-consuming, is thinking out the right solution. I draw different lessons from that than you do, though. First, since thinking is the hardest part, it's important to eliminate as many distractions as possible. Having to break conc…

I have been puzzling over one specific GUI problem in my iOS App for several months. From time to time I try to write actual source code, only to find myself stymied. However I have continued to contemplate the problem this whole time.

I expect I have a solution readily at hand, that won't even be very difficult to implement. Quite likely it won't be more than 30 to 50 lines of code. However I would not have come up with those 30 to 50 lines if I had not spent three months just thinking about this particular problem.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#39

Post by MichaelCrawford » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:29 AM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #18

andreastt wrote: post #15

I'm constantly bewildered by this notion that writing by hand is slow and thus bad, and that typing is fast and consequently good. In my daily routine work as a programmer I find most of my work consists of thinking rather than writing. Or to twist the words a little: I don't think my typing impairs my creative ability, because the hard part of my job is thinking out the right solution. If you can't hold that thought…

For me, it's not that handwriting is a bottleneck in getting my work done; it's that it's psychologically annoying. For instance, I also get severely annoyed sitting at red lights or driving behind someone going 10 mph under the speed limit (I joke with people that the only thing that ever makes me angry is having a green light turn red right before I get to it). Is it really going to make that much of a difference i…

I find that my own mental anguish is most severe when I expect something good, but am forced to do without.

That is, I have no problem going without food, even for days on end, if I choose to do so. It's unpleasant at first but I get used to it.

However if I am looking forward to a good meal, but cannot obtain it, say because I don't have the money, or I am late to an event where the food was all eaten up before I arrived, then I am really, really upset about it - even though I only go without food for a few hours.

Re: Handwriting vs. typing: is the pen still mightier than the keyboard?

#40

Post by sumo » Wed, Dec 17, 2014, 6:35 AM UTC

andreastt wrote: post #15

I'm constantly bewildered by this notion that writing by hand is slow and thus bad, and that typing is fast and consequently good. In my daily routine work as a programmer I find most of my work consists of thinking rather than writing. Or to twist the words a little: I don't think my typing impairs my creative ability, because the hard part of my job is thinking out the right solution. If you can't hold that thought…

Agreed, as a programmer, you are constantly able to think faster than you can express yourself, and it certainly feels as though nothing you can do (not even typing) allows you to lay out your thoughts and play around with them does it justice. Some of my best memories and learnings were discovered on paper and pen while at my keyboard. And often we stick them up on the walls afterward to serve a as a reminder and reference.

One good example of this is state machines, sometimes there is just so much state to track in a system, your brain no longer than handle enough combinations, or dimensions.

I like to draw them out (which is why I started https://collusionapp.com), and then outsource some of the brain work to others by sharing it as well so they can help me with the confusing aspects of the states once I've mentally unloaded them onto the page.

I think drawing the thoughts out lets you then "forget" the entire context of the problem and allows your "mind space" to kind of focus on the sub-parts or details of the problem.

I just don't feel like ONLY text can solve that while we still have people like us who were brought up with pen and paper.

I really think the benefit of technology here over conventional handwriting is the ability to outsource thinking through sharing, which helps with not thinking fast enough as well as being able to deliver your message in a freeform and quick manner, especially with creative disciplines.

I think having super quick access is also important before you lose thoughts too, I guess having tabs open already kind of like blank paper is super useful.