Live data from Hacker News

What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

blog.mrmeyer.com

41–50 of 55 posts

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#41

Please for the love of maths do not "align" with the common core standards. It would be the saddest, most disheartening thing imaginable* for Khan Academy to become a feeder to the American standardized testing system. The author writes: "If one of Khan Academy’s goals is to prepare students for success in Common Core mathematics, they’re emphasizing the wrong set of skills." I would like nothing better than the acad…

This response shows a willful ignorance of the stated goals of Common Core, especially with relation to the Common Core math curriculum. Common Core's primary pedagogical shift in math is to remove the historical focus on math as a set of mindless procedures, and instead teach children math as a broader, more holistic approach to logical & numerical reasoning. Common Core teaches children to solve problems many diffe…

Only the worst teachers failed to motivate math procedures. Granted, the curve may have been skewed to worst. :) But CCSS does not suggest a little professional development to get teachers to explain the "why" behind the procedures, it wants kids to invest a ton of time in proving procedures multiple ways before then, well, going ahead and mastering the procedure.

CCSS is untested (unless you count its imposition on 40+ states a test) so we'll have to wait and see if it moves the US up the meaningless PISA test rankings.

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a well designed test of an important curriculum. This means the topics are important for $REASONS, and the test is highly correlated with knowledge of the topics. If a student asks "why is this important", you can reply "$REASONS". And you can "teach to the test" secure in the knowledge that you are teaching useful materials. Now, if you believe the curriculum is poorly designed or the test is poorly correla…

I can't speak for OP, although I basically agree with you and OP simultaneously. However, look at it as an optimization problem. CC testing standards and format may be ideal testing tools for 49 minutes 5th period after lunch 5 days a week in a 40 person classroom, performed in perfect lock step by all 40 students, only failure mode is repeating the entire class or developing a hatred of the topic, aka standard publi…

So from what little I've seen, KA is reasonably well aligned with common core already. Most decent curriculums do. Also, I think you are misunderstanding what CC is. CC is just a list of topics students should know - there is no "CC testing standards and format".

If KA doesn't align with CC, it's because there is some particular topic that KA forgot about. E.g. maybe common core requires students to "Solve problems involving addition and subtraction of fractions by using information presented in line plots", but Khan forgot about that one.

I also don't think it would be harmful if KA made sure it covered the basic topics of AIEEE or the IIT-JEE either (important Indian standardized exams). A lot of people want to pass those exams and it would be a marginal amount of extra work for KA to help them.

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a well designed test of an important curriculum. This means the topics are important for $REASONS, and the test is highly correlated with knowledge of the topics. If a student asks "why is this important", you can reply "$REASONS". And you can "teach to the test" secure in the knowledge that you are teaching useful materials. Now, if you believe the curriculum is poorly designed or the test is poorly correla…

You make a strong logical argument, but it relies critically on the tests being really great. Have you examined the sample questions as well as the standards? And even if the tests are great (they are not) do you have any idea how well this will play out in real classrooms? I ask because, as a veteran teacher, my guess is that CCSS will be great for the top two deciles and a disaster for the rest. The super worst thi…

[deleted]

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#44
post #23

I've noticed with most critiques of KA that they set up a straw man of what KA is trying to accomplish, and then they attack that, almost always without giving a better alternative. The fact is KA is a great tool for learning many subjects, and will only continue to improve. The biggest take aways should be: - spaced repetition of subject matter is extremely useful for long term memorization - bite sized, repeatable…

(I'm one of many behind Khan Academy) One thing that can't be said enough — which we internalize deeply at KA but is often confused outside our office — is that KA intends to be a resource for education, not a complete solution. It's a resource for students who wouldn't otherwise have access to this content and for those having trouble with whatever education they're currently getting. And it's a resource for teacher…

Just curious, why would KA not want to be a complete solution for education?

I can understand the political incentives not to openly state such an ambitious goal - the educational establishment is massively powerful, and doesn't want an upstart replacing them. But is there a reason why, in principle, KA wouldn't want to be a complete solution to all of education?

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#45
post #5

Please for the love of maths do not "align" with the common core standards. It would be the saddest, most disheartening thing imaginable* for Khan Academy to become a feeder to the American standardized testing system. The author writes: "If one of Khan Academy’s goals is to prepare students for success in Common Core mathematics, they’re emphasizing the wrong set of skills." I would like nothing better than the acad…

(I work at Khan Academy.) We have no interest in preparing students for tests just for the sake of it, but if you look at the Common Core standards you'll see that they are well thought out (really!) and designing a curriculum around them is a very sensible thing to do. Of course, we won't restrict ourselves to the material covered by the Common Core if/when we feel there are gaps. We're interested in helping student…

Khan Academy is obviously a useful tool for learning, and of course it's part of a child's education, not all of it. The point I think Dan is making is that if you 1. say you're aligned to the common core, and 2. provide mastery statistics to suggest a level of comprehension or depth of knowledge tied to those standards then that should predict well a child's performance answering questions aligned to the standards but outside the KA system (e.g. a Smarter Balanced Assessment)

That means until that ideal is reached KA could say "Mastery at X depth of knowledge but note, for this standard Y is required" or allow teachers to write free response questions and have them tag the questions by standard, type, depth of knowledge etc. and grade them by hand in the KA system. Including hand graded questions (by a student's teacher)with an adequate tagging system KA mastery statistics might be significantly more accurate.

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider a well designed test of an important curriculum. This means the topics are important for $REASONS, and the test is highly correlated with knowledge of the topics. If a student asks "why is this important", you can reply "$REASONS". And you can "teach to the test" secure in the knowledge that you are teaching useful materials. Now, if you believe the curriculum is poorly designed or the test is poorly correla…

I can't speak for OP, although I basically agree with you and OP simultaneously. However, look at it as an optimization problem. CC testing standards and format may be ideal testing tools for 49 minutes 5th period after lunch 5 days a week in a 40 person classroom, performed in perfect lock step by all 40 students, only failure mode is repeating the entire class or developing a hatred of the topic, aka standard publi…

If a curriculum, like KA, is "aligned" to a set of standards, like the Common Core standards, it means that the standards accurately describe what the curriculum teaches. Often, as is the case with the Common Core State Standards, the standards do not address how the items of a particular content standard is taught, preferring to leave such things up to the professional judgement of the curriculum designers. So the Common Core doesn't mandate a "style, tone, or technique." And defining "alignment" as talking about a topic at the same time as other teachers in a certain order is perfectly reasonable. You can even assess a student on that topic any way you want. But don't forget that the ways we assess students also teach them what we care about and what "doing mathematics" means.

One thing that is a big change from most states' previous standard, is that the Common Core includes 8 Mathematical Practice standards--ways that we want students to think about and do mathematics. These are things like: don't give up when solving problems, know and use the right mathematical tools for the right job, be precise, make and critique arguments, and pay attention to patterns. As with everything we learn, students learn to engage in these behaviors by practicing them, and they get practice by engaging in tasks and interactions that require them to draw conclusions, cite evidence, and apply concepts to solve non-routine problems. In a traditional classroom, these standards of mathematical practices should be woven in with all of the lessons that we teach, and we should assess students on their learning on these standards as well as the content standards.

While the Common Core might facilitate an expansion of standardized testing by giving a common set of expectations to assess, many people erroneously conflate the standards with the assessment of the standards. This is understandable --Meyer does not seem to spend any time on drawing the distinction. The CCSS doesn't mandate or recommend any particular test. And while it makes sense to speak of assessment of the Common Core, it doesn't make sense to speak of the Common Core assessment.

Having said that, any tool that claims to assess the Common Core should also assess these mathematical practices. One such tool is the Smarter Balance Assessment Consortium's test. Meyer claims that KA doesn't prepare students to be successful on the SBAC test, because students spend most of their interactions with Kahn Academy doing exercises and problems that do not require the depth that the Common Core calls for. This assertion seems supported by his data.

You may be right that KA represents the current local maximum for computerized delivery of mathematics, but Meyer is evaluating KA as a curriculum, not as a resource for kids who need extra help. In this role, Meyer's data indicates that KA's interactions with students falls short of depth of knowledge required by other assessments of the Common Core. His hypothesis that KA focuses on these types of questions because they are easier to be scored by a computer seems pretty reasonable to me. I don't think it is trash talking KA to evaluate the product it delivers against the claims they make for that product.

Finally, suppose KA found a great way to have students engage in higher order thinking skills: maybe require students to explain their thinking or make conjectures or solve multi-step problems that require them to apply concepts in non-standard ways. I don't think this would make it useless for kids who use it for extra help, do you?

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#47

Please for the love of maths do not "align" with the common core standards. It would be the saddest, most disheartening thing imaginable* for Khan Academy to become a feeder to the American standardized testing system. The author writes: "If one of Khan Academy’s goals is to prepare students for success in Common Core mathematics, they’re emphasizing the wrong set of skills." I would like nothing better than the acad…

What do you oppose in the Common Core? Sure, they might make it easier to develop widely used standardized tests, but the assessment of the Common Core is not the Common Core. Teaching students to be successful with Common Core mathematics doesn't necessarily mean teaching them to pass tests. But the Common Core does ask students to engage with math at a higher level of thinking than did most of the state standards that preceded it. Common Core is actually pretty well thought out--at least the K-8 portion is.

Designing a curriculum around a set of standards does not have to be "teaching to the test" and a cursory reading of the CCSS makes it clear that the answer to questions like "Why is this important?" or "Why should we do it this way?" should never be "Because the test says so." Students should "construct viable arguments and critique the reasoning of others." How does this kill independent thought?

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#48

I've noticed with most critiques of KA that they set up a straw man of what KA is trying to accomplish, and then they attack that, almost always without giving a better alternative. The fact is KA is a great tool for learning many subjects, and will only continue to improve. The biggest take aways should be: - spaced repetition of subject matter is extremely useful for long term memorization - bite sized, repeatable…

Kahn Academy's stated mission is to "providing a free world-class education for anyone anywhere." They claim to have content aligned to every standard of the Common Core. This is exactly how Meyer represents their position. I don't see how that is a straw man.

It sounds like your argument is that KA doesn't actually claim these things and that it is not reasonable to evaluate it on those grounds. I don't think that finding that Kahn Academy doesn't do what it claims in these regards qualifies as attacking it, unless critique = attack. Further, finding KA lacking in the types of questions it asks students doesn't require offering a better alternative in order for the critique to be valid.

The rest of your comment is probably not that controversial, but these aspects of KA are not what Meyer was evaluating. Special pleading doesn't give Kahn Academy credit for the claims they make. I'm sure they will continue to improve--as the 800lb gorilla in the room, they have plenty of attention from people who can offer suggestions. The Common Core requires students to think more deeply about the mathematics than most of the state standards that came before it, and the types of questions that KA asks its students are too superficial.

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#49

Please for the love of maths do not "align" with the common core standards. It would be the saddest, most disheartening thing imaginable* for Khan Academy to become a feeder to the American standardized testing system. The author writes: "If one of Khan Academy’s goals is to prepare students for success in Common Core mathematics, they’re emphasizing the wrong set of skills." I would like nothing better than the acad…

Agreed with your sentiments, but Khan is financed by Bill "Common Core" Gates and in May partnered with the College Board (hard core CCSS folks) so look for KA to get closer to CCSS, not further. Money talks and CCSS, as bad as it is pedagogically, has a surface plausibility that fools folks who have never taught. In this sense it is like the New Math of the Sixties, which tried to improve math learning by starting a…

I'm wondering what your pedagogical objections are to the CCSS math standards. From my reading of the CCSS and supporting documents, it sure seems like the designers were research-informed. What did they get wrong, and what would you do differently? It really isn't a rehashing of New Math. They think very carefully about the pedagogical starting point, in fact.

Please don't assume that people who think the CCSS are on balance a good thing are people who are inexperienced in the classroom. There is room to disagree about aspects of the CCSS, but the discussion will be more productive if our assertions are supported by evidence, rather than name-calling.

Re: What Students Do (And Don't Do) in Khan Academy

#50
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed with your sentiments, but Khan is financed by Bill "Common Core" Gates and in May partnered with the College Board (hard core CCSS folks) so look for KA to get closer to CCSS, not further. Money talks and CCSS, as bad as it is pedagogically, has a surface plausibility that fools folks who have never taught. In this sense it is like the New Math of the Sixties, which tried to improve math learning by starting a…

I'm wondering what your pedagogical objections are to the CCSS math standards. From my reading of the CCSS and supporting documents, it sure seems like the designers were research-informed. What did they get wrong, and what would you do differently? It really isn't a rehashing of New Math. They think very carefully about the pedagogical starting point, in fact. Please don't assume that people who think the CCSS are o…

(a) my analogy with the New Math was not meant to equate the two, only their conceptual cart before procedural horse qualities (which would also be my pedagogical concern); (b) don't get me wrong: I agree with the "deeper understanding" goal of CCSS, and it was how I taught. The concerns I expressed were with the whole program's implementation, (un)testing, and effectiveness with less than exceptional students -- more of a systems thing than pedagogy. In fact, CCSS would have been great as a professional development "surge", if you will. All this testing, book-rewriting, and saber-rattling over accountability -- well, the proponents get an "F" for change implementation.
Post reply on HN