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CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com

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Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#91

Post by eli_gottlieb »

jmccree wrote: post #73
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Seat allocation" doesn't favor rural districts, Yes it does, at least in the sense that "rural" means "low population density" or "low ratio of population to Congressional seats". > [T]he Senate may be the least democratic legislative chamber in any developed nation. >In the last few years, 41 senators representing as little as a third of the nation’s population have frequently blocked legislation, as the filibuste…

The senate represents the states and the house represents the people. It would be entirely unfair if a small number of high population states could easily impose their will on a large number of small population states. States and their citizens gave up some of their sovereignty when they joined the union, and in return were promised some equitable form of representation, no matter the size of their population. Large…

>It would be entirely unfair if a small number of high population states could easily impose their will on a large number of small population states.

Why? "States" are arbitrary lines drawn in the soil. Should everyone who wants more power just secede and form their own state, ad absurdum?

Besides which, none of the actually existing countries with proportional-representation democracy have sent their rural regions to hell in a handbasket. You can't keep using a thought experiment as a reason to consider catastrophic outcomes from non-regionalist democracy plausible when the empirical evidence runs against it.

And, just to finish off, there's the issue that the current "states" don't even make sense as regional divisions. The citizens of rural upstate New York have far more in common with Vermonters, Western Massachussans, and even citizens of rural Pennsylvania and Illinois than they do with citizens of New York City. Yet because of the division into states, the interests of rural New Yorkers are neglected relative to those of Vermonters just because rural New Yorkers live on the same side of the completely arbitrary border as urban New Yorkers -- even tangential and immaterial association with cities is penalized under this system!

>Would it be fair for those few states to able to completely over-ride the interests of the other 41 states in the union?

This presumes that those nine states have completely unanimous elections. It is entirely fair that elections should be fought over the issues that matter to the largest portion of the people possible, that politicians should stand for election by putting forward the most appealing rational positions, rather than by catering to a disproportionately represented minority and deliberately neglecting the majority of citizens.

Despite the constant fear-mongering of antidemocratic political philosophers, majoritarian democracy, with the rule of law enforced, has never actually resulted in the predicted rounds of war, death, famine, and pestilence. To oppose democratic rule based on violent-mob rule being a bad thing is disingenuous.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#92

Post by a3n »

icantthinkofone wrote: post #85

Can anyone explain to me why stories like this are on HN?

There's the "of interest" clause. But more specifically, we talk a lot here about telecom and internet surveillance. It's good to raise up your head once in awhile and recognize that technical acts are not done for themselves, they're done for a larger goal.

All of these breaches we talk about here by the US and other governments are much more than offenses against technology, they resolve up the tree to support policy. To support kidnapping, torture and murder.

It's not just bits, it's blood.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#93

Post by mariuolo »

beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

> It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors.

Why would it be? Who would willingly do dirty work in the future if they knew they could be held accountable?

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#95

Post by gpcz »

snori74 wrote: post #22
rhino369 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a pr…

The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.

Even worse, "Madam Secretary" is now spreading torture apologist rhetoric by framing the character that worked for the CIA and approved torture as a successful but war-worn, down-to-earth realist that acknowledges that "life is more complicated than you think," while the character that vehemently opposed torture is framed as an overly-idealistic young adult that dropped out of college in protest and has to work menial jobs in retail to "learn how the world works."

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#96

Post by ck2 »

You can't even get a cop to trial for shooting unarmed people to death in this country.

So good luck getting politicians to prosecute someone in the cia, especially when they got to destroy their own video tapes without penalty.

Just like the TSA, then the NSA and now the CIA, people get bored with all the alarms and warnings about extreme overreach and just go back to shopping and drinking. As long as they can do that, politicians have learned they can get away with anything.

I also noticed no-one gives a darn we are still using drones to kill large groups of unidentified people overseas.

I guess the "drone report" will be for the next president and congress to deal with in 8 years.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#97

Post by pmoriarty »

Someone wrote: post #61
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

I agree, but I doubt it would be in the interest of those making the decision whether to prosecute. So, I fear it will not happen, at least not for a few decades, maybe a century or two. Yesterday, I heard this quote: "America is good. And if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." (Reagan, 1983). Made me immediately think of gitmo.

The thing is, for a lot of people torturing "bad guys" (or even suspected bad guys) is good.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#98

Post by sseveran »

justin66 wrote: post #11
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

> Prosecuting those who committed illegal acts, even though they were assured of immunity, sends a clear message that individuals are still responsible for their actions. They weren't really offered immunity, they were assured by the Office of Legal Counsel that they were doing something legal. Get bad advice from your lawyer as to what is legal and what isn't, go commit a crime, and see what happens.

If you are an agent working in a black operation you by definition cannot talk to a lawyer.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#99

Post by pmoriarty »

mariuolo wrote: post #93
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

> It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. Why would it be? Who would willingly do dirty work in the future if they knew they could be held accountable?

Plenty.

Murder is illegal, and yet plenty of people risk imprisonment and even the death penalty for murder (often aggravated by torture).

Plenty more will risk their lives (and being imprisoned and tortured) to "defend their country" (or just for kicks, loot, "glory", etc) by going to war.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#100

Post by revscat »

beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

The downside with prosecuting the agents is that it would be an admission that the United States government can do wrong. The primary factor in the US government's decision matrix is "admit no wrongdoing ever, to anyone, under any circumstances, for any reason." Don't apologize, don't prosecute criminal wrongdoing by agents doing the state's business, and do not change. This has further implications: if the government has decided to do something, then it is by its very nature correct. And if the truth threatens to come out, such as in the CIA torture case, then the strategy is to fight disclosure every step of the way or, if that isn't possible, to minimize the damage through manipulating public discourse.

I believe this has something to do with sociology or some unspoken theory of governance that is understood by those with the most authority in government. I don't know if it is conscious or not, but intentional or no it's as if they believe that alpha males triumph, for governments to be successful they must be alpha, and the United States is the most alpha of the alphas. And if you're Alpha Alpha, you can not admit wrongdoing: that would indicate that maybe you shouldn't have been alpha in the first place and makes future decisions harder to convince people to accept. If that pattern continues on for long enough... Well, maybe you won't be a government anymore.

The Senate report was a great step. But the US will do nothing significant in response, because it is not in the nature of governments -- especially this one -- to attack themselves. Any changes will come as a result of external pressures, not from existing bureaucratic ones.

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