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Systemd v218

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Re: Systemd v218

#21

When will this madness stop? Will systemd not be satisfied til it has subsumed the universe into one great pid 1 singularity?

When it crashes against limitations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner-platform_effect

Its an endless, fairly pointless, cycle.

The existing, working, reliable system is huge and unwieldy. I have a new idea, lets scrap all that obsolete old stuff and create a simpler smaller more modern implementation. Well, turns out replicating and embedding the rest of the world is really hard work, and the result is huge and unwieldy and usually less reliable and comprehensible because its newer. Recursively repeat until stack space exhausted or resource limitations make it too slow to ship...

Note this applies both to the tech side of putting an OS inside your OS, and also to the business side of product tying more and more products until everything imaginable is tied in, at which point the only hope for forward progress is reimplementing everything inside a component of it, of course.

Re: Systemd v218

#22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd - the emacs of init systems.

Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that. Other init schemes do, though.

> Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that

rolling eyes

Please, stop doing your karma bitch.

1. Systemd is far more than an init system, it has 69 binaries !

2. sysV init has no notion of plugin nor module system, but has a notion of script file

3. Like systemd the init system: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-for-admins-3.html

4. But you can also plug yourself via the dbus api, which is far more powerful: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/dbus/

5. If that's what you are suggesting to do, you are not supposed to directly modify and recompile your init system for causal changes. If you want to change its behavior, use command line flags or configuration file.

Re: Systemd v218

#23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that. Other init schemes do, though.

Systemd has a DBus API. http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/dbus/

Which is a programmatic way of essentially doing what systemctl does, querying Unit metadata, and subscribing to some events.

I have no idea how the hell this implies modules, plugins or extensibility on any level that even begins to scratch the surface of Emacs.

Re: Systemd v218

#24
I don't get it (and don't want to download and read systemd source). Could someone explain?

The docs say:

> native PPPoE library has been added to sd-network, systemd's library of light-weight networking protocols. This library will be used in a future version of networkd to enable PPPoE communication without an external pppd daemon. (emphasis mine)

Usually, it works like this - a separate entity (either as a separate daemon that talks to pppd through a pipe or as rp-pppoe.so plugin to Samba's pppd) does the PPPoE session discovery and management, then passes decapsulated PPP frames to a full-fledged PPP daemon implementation. Which is a quite large entity.

Did they implement only PPPoE part (that is, just handling encapsulated PPP frames) or systemd now has a full-fledged PPP (with all the important subprotocols like LCP, EAP, IPCP and possibly IP6CP) reimplementation?

Not like I care about systemd gaining PPP support. Heck, they want to build their own OS core - that's great. What I don't get is why rewrite things that aren't broken in the first place? (Samba's pppd may be a bit messy and has some nearly-dead stuff like IPX support, but is generally fine.)

Re: Systemd v218

#25
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are mistaking systemd pid1 and systemd the project, this is not in pid1 but in the networkd component.

And it's substantially south of 1000 lines of code. It's not a full PPP daemon, but it is enough to set up (it seems) PPPoE - useful, example, for small embedded DSL routers. I love that people bash Lennart for code he didn't even write...

I'm worried about "without an external pppd daemon" part.

Re: Systemd v218

#26
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are mistaking systemd pid1 and systemd the project, this is not in pid1 but in the networkd component.

And it's substantially south of 1000 lines of code. It's not a full PPP daemon, but it is enough to set up (it seems) PPPoE - useful, example, for small embedded DSL routers. I love that people bash Lennart for code he didn't even write...

I'm worried about "without an external pppd daemon" part.

There's no point in PPPoE without PPP. And if they say "without external pppd" this means they're going to ship a full-fledged PPP daemon.

Re: Systemd v218

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's trying to obsolete the Linux distribution? You say it like that would be a bad thing.

systemd is targeting the totally wrong layer of the stack for such a thing. What makes a distribution is its package manager. We already have solutions like Nix for this, though they sadly might not break the mainstream if Lennart's proposed btrfs volume scheme comes into fruition. I'd say that experimentation and divergence in systems and application software, particularly if it's easily enabled thanks to the bazaar…

There's no reason third party components couldn't slot into systemd. It is quite modular. It is just a different method of intercommunication, not the end of intercommunicating modular components.

Re: Systemd v218

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that. Other init schemes do, though.

> Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that rolling eyes Please, stop doing your karma bitch. 1. Systemd is far more than an init system, it has 69 binaries ! 2. sysV init has no notion of plugin nor module system, but has a notion of script file 3. Like systemd the init system: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-for-admins-3.html 4.…

I'm just going to assume you're not a troll, because your arguments are widespread, regardless.

Systemd is far more than an init system, it has 69 binaries !

It's actually far more than 69 binaries by now. That's a long outdated number. Nor did I ever imply systemd is just an init system. Where did you get that?

sysV init has no notion of plugin nor module system, but has a notion of script file

Where did I mention sysvinit? I wasn't talking about sysvinit. finit and initng are examples of plugin-based init systems.

Like systemd the init system

It would be very odd if an init system didn't have some way of configuring a service, don't you think? I don't see how this is meaningful at all - it's an absolute fundamental given.

But you can also plug yourself via the dbus api, which is far more powerful

Which, as I stated in a previous post, is nowhere near sufficient for the level of extensibility that I was referring to, such as that of Emacs. The D-Bus API is useful for writing layers of abstraction and remotely controlling and querying the daemon(s) in a more convenient way.

If that's what you are suggesting to do, you are not supposed to directly modify and recompile your init system for causal changes. If you want to change its behavior, use command line flags or configuration file.

And why the hell not?

There is no "not supposed to" here, it's only a) improperly designed architecture and b) lack of imagination that makes it so.

Yes, in systemd's case, such a thing is not meant to be done. The reason is because the init daemon is coupled with the process management and supervision framework, among other components. As other init designs have shown, a dynamic plugin architecture is practical and useful provided components are more loosely coupled.

I'm also curious as to why you mention "recompile". The whole point of plugins is that you don't need to do that.

It's really funny that systemd proponents make such bland arguments deeply rooted in tradition. The same ones they decry a lot of opponents for making.

Re: Systemd v218

#29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that. Other init schemes do, though.

> Not at all. Emacs is significantly extensible. systemd has no notion of a plugin or module system, or anything like that rolling eyes Please, stop doing your karma bitch. 1. Systemd is far more than an init system, it has 69 binaries ! 2. sysV init has no notion of plugin nor module system, but has a notion of script file 3. Like systemd the init system: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-for-admins-3.html 4.…

As you said. It has 69 binaries. 69 insecure turd bins to worry about in what should be an init system. But it is no longer an init system. It is a cancer on Linux. Edit - so it is cool now to have Linux subservient to the init system? Really?

Re: Systemd v218

#30

I don't get it (and don't want to download and read systemd source). Could someone explain? The docs say: > native PPPoE library has been added to sd-network, systemd's library of light-weight networking protocols. This library will be used in a future version of networkd to enable PPPoE communication without an external pppd daemon. (emphasis mine) Usually, it works like this - a separate entity (either as a separat…

What's not to get? Your shiny new bloated init system just added another attack entry point. Enjoy! The hackers will! Edit - so people think this will be secure and not exhibit some of the same classy bugs the other 68 binaries of systemd have shown? A flick through the bug tracker over there is a real eye opener.
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