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CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com

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Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#61

Post by Someone »

beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

I agree, but I doubt it would be in the interest of those making the decision whether to prosecute. So, I fear it will not happen, at least not for a few decades, maybe a century or two.

Yesterday, I heard this quote: "America is good. And if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." (Reagan, 1983). Made me immediately think of gitmo.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#62

Post by nraynaud »

probably_wrong wrote: post #50
justin66 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prosecuting those who committed illegal acts, even though they were assured of immunity, sends a clear message that individuals are still responsible for their actions. They weren't really offered immunity, they were assured by the Office of Legal Counsel that they were doing something legal. Get bad advice from your lawyer as to what is legal and what isn't, go commit a crime, and see what happens.

For a counterpoint, you might want to look into Argentina's "Law of due obedience"[1]. Of course, Argentinean law doesn't affect US law, but the fact that this law was eventually repealed sets an international precedent that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense from prosecution. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_de_Obediencia_Debida

Yes, there is no amnesty for human right crimes, that means those people were only protected inside Argentina. And the Nuremberg defense doesn't work against the Nuremberg laws.

On a side note, it was not exactly repealed, because you can't repeal an amnesty (ie voting a new law that removes it). They found that its creation was unconstitutional, meaning that it was void from the onset, like it had never happened. Learning about those 2 laws (+ley de pounto final for the ones giving the orders) when I was in Argentina was extremely formative on a law doctrine point of view.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#63

Post by e12e »

rhino369 wrote: post #15
alexandros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a pr…

> "Just following orders" didn't work at Nuremberg because we were trying the people who gave the orders too.

The only reason the Nuremberg trails happened at all, was that Germany lost. No-one was indited over fire-bombing Dresden, or nuking Hiroshima. People didn't go to prison over atrocities committed in Vietnam.

While there should be prosecution over this, it seems unlikely to happen in the current US system. I'm not holding my breath, but with the continuing unrest in the country, there might be some actual changes in the coming years. But a lot would need to happen -- for example there's the need for a viable political power-block other than the Democrats and the Republicans -- I sadly don't see that happening any time soon.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#64

Post by fatman »

Nuremburg was an exception to the general rule that you couldn't prosecute soldiers for carrying out the orders of their superiors - establishing that the mass genocide of innocent people crosses a line. However, the torture of a handful of active enemy participants might not.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#65

Post by happyscrappy »

gomerclaus wrote: post #39
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. No, one of two things is needed: either a revolution, or a mass migration of voters to places where their votes actually count. Both gerrymandering and the tendency of American seat allocation to favor rural districts have strongly reduced the effect of voting on the formation of actual governments.

I've been screaming the "Let's migrate!" mantra for years. If we want rational politics in this country, we have to stack the polls with rational votes. As it stands, our voice is largely--in some instances, mostly--drowned out by single party voters. A pragmatic solution would be for the people who recognize the problem to migrate to the same city or county and work our way up the political ladder. I'm down; where a…

Vermont.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#66

Post by TheCondor »

rhino369 wrote: post #15
alexandros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

The real reason is that they were carrying out the official policy of the US government. Just calling it CIA torture is minimizing how far up this went. Bush ordered it. DOD knew. DOJ not only knew, it crafted the governments tortured definition of torture. Congress knew. This isn't some off the books CIA wet team opp. It was planned and signed off at the highest levels. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos, is a pr…

There is a little bit more nuance to it. Everybody knew but the time line is critical and congressional oversight didn't just approve torture, they found out after it happened and there was maneuvering to keep those who knew quiet. They told congress it would be illegal to reveal clandestine information and such, congress didn't exactly go to the mats to change anything though.

Overall, yes, everybody knew "enhanced interrogation" was in use and was effectively "okay" with it. Not that many knew what that was or what it included beyond sleep deprevation and water boarding. I think the way it was out sourced is absolutely interesting, there is a lot more than meets the eye there...

A lot of people involved sure aren't proud of it all though

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#67

Post by WorldWideWayne »

VieElm wrote: post #16
rasz_pl wrote: post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the…

Are people supposed to look on TV or other mass media outlets for proper information and motivation?

If so, I think we need a revolution because TV, Radio and now the Internet are controlled assets of the current system.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#68

Post by pavelrub »

mercurial wrote: post #20
waps wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting the UN human rights council ? Really ? Have you ever looked at who you're supporting just to get your way ? I mean, I'm all for holding those responsible to account, but, firstly, nothing will change unless the US itself holds those people to account. Second the UN are firmly on the side of human rights violators that make Hitler look like a beginner, and the UN itself also feels the need to commit massacr…

You are quite right in saying that the UN Human Rights committee is a farce. However, find me a nation-state with no double standards. The behaviour of the US, as self-proclaimed champion of freedom and democracy, is especially egregious. It imposes an embargo on Cuba while shaking hands with the Saudis and thinks Israel can do no wrong. Not to mention its longstanding record of supporting human rights in some parts…

The UN isn't a nation-state. The US obviously acts to promote its own interests, as it should. It doesn't purport to be an objective and an unbiased protector of human rights across the globe. The UNHRC does, and that's the whole point of its existence.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#69

Post by pavelrub »

kiiski wrote: post #42
briandear wrote: post #19

One huge peave of mine reflects a general level of ignorance about CIA by both media and commentators; they aren't CIA 'Agents' they are CIA 'officers.' It might sound like a nitpick, but if the news media repeatedly gets such a fundamental detail wrong, how can they be even remotely viewed as credible in the bigger issues? It would be like a reporter referring to RAM as ROM; hard to to have any faith that they even…

Perhaps they are not using the word "agent" as a CIA job title, but rather in the actual meaning of the word: An agent is one who acts for, or in the place of, another, by authority from him; one entrusted with the business of another.

The media uses the word "agent" to refer only to those who work in intelligence and defense agencies, so your explanation doesn't seem sufficient. And even if you are right - the word "agent" has a clear and different meaning in the context of intelligence, so at best this is a really bad choice of words.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#70

Post by orbifold »

alexandros wrote: post #8
beloch wrote: post #6

It would actually be in the U.S.'s own interests to prosecute these CIA agents and their superiors. First, this would show support for international laws against torture and help put the lid back on Pandora's box. This would directly reduce the probability of captured U.S. citizens being tortured. No, that probably does not include those captured by ISIL, but are rogue terrorist organizations all U.S. citizens will n…

The prestige hit and vulnerability to "letting down the troops" criticisms will ensure this doesn't happen.

The FAS (reputable german newspaper) on the front page: "Berlin wants to see torturers in court", according to the article politicians from all german parties think a criminal prosecution is necessary. Most likely there won't be any real consequences in the transatlantic relationship, if there isn't, as we are perfectly fine dealing with countries like Russia and China in a semi-friendly manner most of the time. The US has already lost a lost of prestige in the matter over the years, given that the black sites and "enhanced interrogation techniques" were more or less public knowledge. Ideally the whole Bush administration would be put on trial for war crimes and violations of the torture conventions, but that is a pipe dream of course.
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