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CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com

31–40 of 138 posts

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#31

One huge peave of mine reflects a general level of ignorance about CIA by both media and commentators; they aren't CIA 'Agents' they are CIA 'officers.' It might sound like a nitpick, but if the news media repeatedly gets such a fundamental detail wrong, how can they be even remotely viewed as credible in the bigger issues? It would be like a reporter referring to RAM as ROM; hard to to have any faith that they even…

If the story was "ROM chips made by child slaves", but they were really RAM chips, then like this story, it'd be rather immaterial to the subject.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#32
post #17
post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

Is that any different than people connected to other intelligence communities such as Viktor Bout or similar?

It is pretty much different, see for yourself:

Viktor Bout is serving 25 year sentence in an American jail after being arrested in Thailand and extradicted to the US. The former CIA Milan station chief, who's been convicted in absentia by an Italian court, has been arrested in Panama and released next day instead of being extradited to Italy.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#33
post #16
post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the…

>America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest.

No, one of two things is needed: either a revolution, or a mass migration of voters to places where their votes actually count. Both gerrymandering and the tendency of American seat allocation to favor rural districts have strongly reduced the effect of voting on the formation of actual governments.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#34
post #9

We've been over this already. US just fucking doesnt care. Extradition treaties are ONE WAY. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/13/italy-c... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-j... One of kidnapper/torturer fuckers was even apprehended, and despite international arrest warrant magically released very next day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Seldon_Lady Those people are un…

the UK seem to be fairly well accommodated for extradition:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/100739/response/25520...

a one day workers strike in the US would have guantanamo closed the next week and these guys in jail tomorrow.

the US citizens and veterans will not win against their own police force, never mind their own military.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#35
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that "24" with Jack Bauer routinely using torture ran for eight years with high ratings surely reflected the US public's tacit approval.

I don't think you can sensibly infer anything of the sort from television ratings. As I recall, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and Dexter all rated pretty well too.

[deleted]

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#36
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting the UN human rights council ? Really ? Have you ever looked at who you're supporting just to get your way ? I mean, I'm all for holding those responsible to account, but, firstly, nothing will change unless the US itself holds those people to account. Second the UN are firmly on the side of human rights violators that make Hitler look like a beginner, and the UN itself also feels the need to commit massacr…

You are quite right in saying that the UN Human Rights committee is a farce. However, find me a nation-state with no double standards. The behaviour of the US, as self-proclaimed champion of freedom and democracy, is especially egregious. It imposes an embargo on Cuba while shaking hands with the Saudis and thinks Israel can do no wrong. Not to mention its longstanding record of supporting human rights in some parts…

I will go so far as to say that the US is better than the UN Human Rights Committee. Why ? I have walked around in the US, in Europe, in Israel (and the West Bank, not Gaza though), and Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India.

The US, on the street and for it's residents, is 99.99% a free country that respects human rights (presumably at least in part because it's population constantly throws up stinks like this one). Walking around the US, well, I don't need to tell you what you see. I feel a lot safer on the streets of the US just talking to people and saying whatever my political opinion is than even compared to the Netherlands (it sometimes seems like 50% of the population there believes in a Jewish or US or "Capitalist" or sometimes communist conspiracy and they will shout at you, or worse if you try to reason with people about it). Saudi Arabia is a country of thugs where everybody in the streets is afraid of everybody else, and your sex and skin color, and to a lesser extent your dress, determine your worth (and if you're able to enter malls, bars and shops). Pakistan is 80% Saudi Arabia and 20% free. I'm not saying the US beats other countries in everything, far from it, but in freedom and "not getting your head bashed in/arrested/fired/... because you like political party X", it is by far the best country I've ever seen. The most aggressive response I've ever seen in the US to a political opinion is laughter. And I have never, ever, seen anyone in the US refuse someone access to a bar, shopping mall, store, or ... based on skin color, sex or religion. I have seen it often in Europe (bars only), and in the middle east it's considered normal to have ethnic, sex and religious restrictions on half the buildings in a city.

And frankly, the fact that the US Congress even looks at allegations of torture by a state agent, shows it's moral superiority over the UN. The fact that people can and do write about what the CIA did without losing their jobs, disappearing, getting shot or beat up, and worse, is a situation superior to what is found in the vast majority of UN member nations. Again, this, in my mind, proves the moral superiority of the US. Hell, even compared to Russia, which is definitely a first world country. Do you think Russia doesn't torture people ? When are you expecting the 2 first pages of the Moscow times to get dedicated to a 2 day session in the Duma about the Russian army's use of torture ?

Hell, according to amnesty international, Ukraine, Poland, Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands' governments have committed torture in 2014 [1](and some/most of them assisted the currently being discussed CIA program as well) [1]. I seem to be unable to find any discussion in their parliaments of that. They mostly seem to be talking about austerity measures, leaving/joining Europe, that sort of thing.

Here's a paragraph on Russia, from amnesty international : "Torture methods documented by Amnesty International range from beatings, suspension from ceiling hooks, asphyxiation with plastic bags, to electrocution, inserting needles under finger or toenails, dousing with freezing water and even rape."

About EU countries : "The denial of police abuses is still the default reaction across the EU and the Balkans, where the institutional response and thoroughness of investigations are frequently inadequate."

Again this is much better than their reports on the middle east and Asia (even the complaints about Russia and Turkey, at least in Russia and Turkey it seems to be easy to avoid state-sponsored brutality, which is not true at all in the middle east and a lot of Asia)

The UN has never even looked into allegations of it's own wrongdoing. And what half of UN member nations do comes dangerously close to "state-sponsored genocide" in many cases.

The US has moral imperfections. And yes, there's assholes that are employed by the US government in positions of power. This is no different from any other nation. They are bad, and must be dealt with, I fully agree there. The UN, however, is a collection of thugs, massacrers, racists and worse.

The argument you're making "the US and UN are both imperfect" is of course true, it is also completely useless. There is no hair on my head that doubts that the US has a massive moral advantage over the UN.

I feel that at the very least we owe it to Congress to let it figure out what to do. I'd be amazed if they didn't at least pass a law that this can never happen again.

[1] http://www.amnesty.org.au/resources/activist/Report-_Torture...

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#37
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting the UN human rights council ? Really ? Have you ever looked at who you're supporting just to get your way ? I mean, I'm all for holding those responsible to account, but, firstly, nothing will change unless the US itself holds those people to account. Second the UN are firmly on the side of human rights violators that make Hitler look like a beginner, and the UN itself also feels the need to commit massacr…

You are quite right in saying that the UN Human Rights committee is a farce. However, find me a nation-state with no double standards. The behaviour of the US, as self-proclaimed champion of freedom and democracy, is especially egregious. It imposes an embargo on Cuba while shaking hands with the Saudis and thinks Israel can do no wrong. Not to mention its longstanding record of supporting human rights in some parts…

Lots of finger pointing. No solutions.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#38
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will never happen because the prosecution would logically include Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and some legislators. I don't see a Republican administration prosecuting them because of loyalty, and I don't see a Democratic one doing that because I suspect Pelosi and Obama could be prosecuted as well (if new evidence comes to light). And without going after the very highest level offenders, you're throwing the CIA…

Obama probably would not be part of the group but Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein would. Jay Rockefeller as well. These three very senior leaders in the Democratic party have sat on the Foreign Intelligence Committee during this period of torture and while supposedly not completely in-the-loop approved of what they did know of.

>Obama probably would not be part of the group

Obama is the president of the country blatantly, in the open, violating Geneva Conventions - Gitmo, drone strikes. Not that anybody, who matters, cares though.

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#39
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> until real revolution in US, or some sort of vigilantism movement America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. Maybe that counts as a revolution, but the way you paired it with "vigiliantism movement" suggested some kind of violence or government overthrow which would be pretty awful to be honest and I hope never happens in my life time or the…

>America doesn't need a revolution, it just needs more informed and motivated voters who vote in their self-interest. No, one of two things is needed: either a revolution, or a mass migration of voters to places where their votes actually count. Both gerrymandering and the tendency of American seat allocation to favor rural districts have strongly reduced the effect of voting on the formation of actual governments.

I've been screaming the "Let's migrate!" mantra for years. If we want rational politics in this country, we have to stack the polls with rational votes. As it stands, our voice is largely--in some instances, mostly--drowned out by single party voters. A pragmatic solution would be for the people who recognize the problem to migrate to the same city or county and work our way up the political ladder. I'm down; where are we moving to?

Re: CIA agents who tortured are vulnerable to prosecution in any country

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quite right in saying that the UN Human Rights committee is a farce. However, find me a nation-state with no double standards. The behaviour of the US, as self-proclaimed champion of freedom and democracy, is especially egregious. It imposes an embargo on Cuba while shaking hands with the Saudis and thinks Israel can do no wrong. Not to mention its longstanding record of supporting human rights in some parts…

I will go so far as to say that the US is better than the UN Human Rights Committee. Why ? I have walked around in the US, in Europe, in Israel (and the West Bank, not Gaza though), and Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and India. The US, on the street and for it's residents, is 99.99% a free country that respects human rights (presumably at least in part because it's population constantly throws up stinks like this one). Walki…

Well, the thing is, western democracies are all for human rights for their own citizens (as long as we're not talking about a right for privacy). It doesn't prevent them from encouraging or committing abuses abroad (the recent torture thing, decolonization wars, the Phoenix program).
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