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Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

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Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#91
post #28
post #7

Of course, this place isn't immune to it. That includes all the usual suspect discussions (NSA, Palestine, China, Russia etc.) but more visibly with the employees of certain companies. One of the more curious things you can do on HN to distract from a story is to start a tangential flamewar in the comments on it, but my single favourite way I see to bury things around here is to ask for detailed citations to data for…

The "usual suspect" discussions about NSA are something like 10:1 against NSA. If there's an NSA sockpuppet army trying to influence HN, it's a good one, because there's no evidence of it.

We're probably not worth it, we're a small community, and the part of that community that are actually and truly influential is smaller still, and wouldn't be doing their influencing by preaching to the HN choir. I'm sure we're monitored, at least automatically, but I doubt we're worth directing.

It's a very small echo chamber.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#92
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like any kind of mass-comment system would be easy to detect. Simply limiting the post rate and comparing to other posts would work just like current anti-span filters now.

Limiting what post rate? If it's coming from a farm it could have the same distribution as real people. If you read the article, you'll see that it's not about spam. It's about astroturf, and not even the kind where you just get a people to repeat your talking points. There are more subtle ways of diverting attention toward a legitimate message you find favorable, or away from a message you'd rather have people forge…

It is the same problem as credit card fraud detection on an ecommerce site. Naive stuff is easy, as the fraud gets more sophisticated it is indistinguishable from human traffic. It isn't just that bots will post stories, but the bots are controlled by persona-amplification software, so a single person could control 100+ bots, tweaking and modifying their behavior while keeping a 2k view of the conversation.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#93

All the discussion here pointing out possible shill armies aside - is there some way to actually stop it. How do we move conversations - Forward.

We voice our thoughts and opinions verbally, with our neighbors, coworkers and friends. Convincing people online in discussion forums is not the best use of our rhetorical time, I would argue that most discussion forums are actually honey pots, whether intended or not.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#94
post #88
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you should be able to provide an example of an NSA thread on HN where a sockpuppet diverted the conversation to infighting between people otherwise sharing common ground. I don't think standards groups need a lot of help concern-trolling complexity into standards. The exact same force is exerted on more benign standards; watch HTML for example. Here's a rebuttal framework: select a NIST crypto standard and show a…

I often think your elequonce with the keyboard and Spock like logical argumentation sets people off by dropping 'cite bombs like debate star.

Nobody who knows me in real life would ever accuse me of being Spock-like.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#95

This is more insidious than I think even most HN readers realize. In the intelligence community, the big black sheep people don't really talk about is psychological operations, or psyops, units. They are the same breed that used research from MK ULTRA style programs to learn how to deprogram humans (some claims on how to reprogram them), and part of that is a scientific analysis of mass social community discourse. Pr…

Journalism is in bad shape because, thanks to big data/metrics, companies figured out clickbait makes more money than hard news or investigative journalism.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#96
Call me crazy, but it /has/ crossed my mind that #gamergate might have been a large-scale test of the ability to create widespread conflict and some degree of community crisis from thin air through sock-puppetry...

EDIT: I honestly don't totally understand what gamergate is, but am in awe of the resurging energy of the whole thing, and hence the observation

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#97
post #96

Call me crazy, but it /has/ crossed my mind that #gamergate might have been a large-scale test of the ability to create widespread conflict and some degree of community crisis from thin air through sock-puppetry... EDIT: I honestly don't totally understand what gamergate is, but am in awe of the resurging energy of the whole thing, and hence the observation

[deleted]

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#98
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice list. I try to reserve my downvotes for these behaviors especially excessive verbosity, redefinition of common words and other non-substanitive content. I think I am going to add the now common request for citation (seriously, you are on the Internet, google it yourself, man.) I am all about reading different points of view but they they should contribute something new.

Use the phrase "add value" for this. Calling for people to add value requires them to make material, original contributions to a dialog, not just quote, cut, paste and link. Link dropping is the worst. People won't actually express themselves. They will just collect information and drop it into a dialog like a trump, or battle card, rendering the whole thing a mess. A call to add value helps push back on garbage like…

Good points, but I think I still disagree with the power of citations. Just because a peer-reviewed article exists doesn't mean its true. Appeal to authority is, and always will be, a logical fallacy.

But my beef with asking for citations as a counter-argument is that it is shifting the burden of proof. If someone makes a statement that you are questioning, you may ask for clarification, but the ball is in your court to find evidence for disproof. The existence or non-existence of a published supporting article is neither proof nor disproof.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#99
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use the word "dodge" and that is one of a number of things people do to avoid having to deal with information they find difficult to process. A while back, I decided to compile a list of these behaviors seen on a smaller, guilty pleasure type of site I enjoy. Here are the major ones seen very frequently: 1. Subject change 2. False comparison 3. Claim of too many opponents 4. Silence 5. Claim to either be a member o…

> "What actually happened was the behaviors intensified!" I've seen it work both ways. Sometimes, being direct about labeling and pointing out bad behavior shames the worst actors, and educates people who had been doing it accidentally. Other times, it simply becomes another tool for the worst actors to use -- just another way to attack. (See also: the fallacy fallacy.) In my experience, the biggest factors in whethe…

Yes, that all rings true to me, particularly the fallacy fallacy part of it.

What the bad actors will do is just make noise with the dodges like they do everything else, "that's a dodge!" style, regardless of merit.

They don't care about merit, only volume and domination of the discussion.

And they don't care, because for them it's about affirmation, my club is the right club because I'm in it kind of thing. And if you aren't in my club, fuck you.

The place where I've been learning for years now has almost no moderation. Early on, I established some bonds and with some other group members, set some norms:

1. Support what you say

2. Words carry the weight you give them.

A "fuck you" often is returned with, "hugs and kisses, and how can I help you get it all out so you feel better?" kinds of responses. Those drive dominators, who don't have any material support for their advocacy, seriously nuts, while garnering popular support for the person returning fire in that fashion, BTW. Beautiful.

On the other hand, "I am disappointed in you" from a valued and respected contributor packs a big punch!

3. Offensive words are as offensive as you think they are.

This means profanity, etc... are OK.

Always being civil works in interesting ways. One way is that clearly bent positions, like say bigotry, are elevated to "just another valid opinion" and that will resonate to "everybody has a right to their opinion" kinds of things.

The truth is, we do have that right, but we don't have the right to be respected for those opinions.

So the other norm ended up being:

4. Act the ass, get called an ass. Don't like it? Don't be an ass.

Quite effective at marginalizing trolls, given the group really does understand the other norms.

Moderation is something I struggle with frankly. It is nearly always gamed or abused. Take an always be nice rule. That means being nice to the racist too. Really? Maybe being a racist should cost a person some, and they might potentially reconsider racism.

On the other hand, moderating criminal posts is necessary.

Your additions are good ones!

I have not encountered "backwards", lol! Not sure what I would have done with that one. Yes, "secret" is all about #5. Rapid deadline is another good one.

That list was an abbreviated one. Most popular kind of thing.

I feel the same way about votes as I do moderation. Those are nearly always gamed.

Both moderation and votes work well when politics and religion are not part of the discussion. Here at HN, I do see the equivalent in some economic discussions, where there is basically some religion in play, but it's minor by comparison to many other places.

What I prefer is some strong voices able to take it better than people give it, who can set norms and manage things toward some productive end.

Problem with that is bias. There is always bias. It takes considerable numbers of us working over a sustained amount of time to be mostly free of bias.

Rather than attempt to claim no bias, I believe it's better to just embrace it, and then attempt to find common ground without actually having to say people are wrong or bad.

Re: Censorship 2.0: Shadowy forces controlling online conversations

#100
post #90
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use the word "dodge" and that is one of a number of things people do to avoid having to deal with information they find difficult to process. A while back, I decided to compile a list of these behaviors seen on a smaller, guilty pleasure type of site I enjoy. Here are the major ones seen very frequently: 1. Subject change 2. False comparison 3. Claim of too many opponents 4. Silence 5. Claim to either be a member o…

Competitive debate is oration and rhetoric. It isn't necessarily pure logical argument, one employs theatrics and logical fallacy where they can get away with it. It is about winning, not shedding more light on the truth.

Really, this is advocacy. Abandon debate rules and norms and you are left with the art of persuasion, which is what advocacy is.

What most people don't seem to grok is advocacy tends to be the dominant norm, not debate.

Given that is true, emotional arguments, character arguments are valid right along with rational, fact based, data driven arguments.

An effective advocate will win most rooms, even against better armed rational debate types.

That is why trolling works.

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