Live data from Hacker News

Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

onbeing.org

51–60 of 308 posts

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#51

The thing I like is the reference to Aristotle. Today, there are some people who are too quick to brand anyone who disagrees with their enlightened views as a "moron" or worse. There's no winning hearts and minds that way. It's better to gently point out the mistakes of those who are otherwise worthy of respect, in the hopes that this will spur others towards self-reflection, than to castigate and put people on the d…

Great point, even considering that Einstein seems to be taking Aristotle and ancient Greek dogma totally out of context. Perhaps, as was and is a tradition in academic circles, he was advocating that contemporary scientists were in fact better and more enlightened than the Greeks. Or, maybe it was a reaction against Hitler's fascination with the ancient Greeks. Yet, Aristotle did not present a clear belief system on…

Meno was written by Plato.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#52

The thing I like is the reference to Aristotle. Today, there are some people who are too quick to brand anyone who disagrees with their enlightened views as a "moron" or worse. There's no winning hearts and minds that way. It's better to gently point out the mistakes of those who are otherwise worthy of respect, in the hopes that this will spur others towards self-reflection, than to castigate and put people on the d…

Great point, even considering that Einstein seems to be taking Aristotle and ancient Greek dogma totally out of context. Perhaps, as was and is a tradition in academic circles, he was advocating that contemporary scientists were in fact better and more enlightened than the Greeks. Or, maybe it was a reaction against Hitler's fascination with the ancient Greeks. Yet, Aristotle did not present a clear belief system on…

Plato wrote Meno and Aristotle presented a very clear belief system on slavery in Book I, Chapters 3 through 7 of The Politics and in Book 7 of the Nicomachean Ethics.

"But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all slavery a violation of nature?"

"There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule."

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.1.one.html

edit - mind you, he also had a tendency to write stuff like: "If a woman looks at a highly polished mirror during the menstrual period, the surface of the mirror becomes like a blood shot cloud", so it isn't as though the slavery thing is a small unfortunate oversight in some otherwise wise philosophy. If you forget for a minute that you are dealing with Aristotle, he is consistently quite considerably bonkers, and seemingly just winging it through a lot of his writing, though there is plenty of genius in there as well.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#54
Racism will continue to be a problem as long as it serves as a useful distraction for the people to prevent us from really scrutinizing the ruling class and the complete disparity between the goals of the super-rich people and the needs of the rest of us who are just trying to get by.

Racism, sexism, homophobia, drugs, guns, taxes, war, spying, all of it are just distractions because whether the issue goes left or right won't matter to most people. What really matters is whether or not people can feed their children, have a roof over their heads, have something meaningful to do with their time, be warm in the winter, be free from violence. These are the things that matter, but we're all caught up in bikeshedding over how to get there.

And in the process, a very small group of people get to come in and unilaterally take action to fill their own pockets. Everything else that happens is the rest of us playing Lord of the Flies.

Isms will end when the majority takes up the cause of the minority, because in actuality, it's their/our cause, too.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#55
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More diversity (in neighborhoods, in workplaces, in schools) would certainly help Maybe instead of forcing segregation, or forcing integration, freedom of association could be tried?

Unfortunately, once communities start out segregated, they stay segregated.

Unfortunately

Why is it unfortunate?

No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Sure, they may say they would to save political face, or to look benevolent or "tolerant" and progressive, but deep down? No. The difference in crime rates and quality of life is just astounding. To prefer to live amongst more blacks is to prefer to be more at risk of having a violent (or other) crime committed against you and having your property values diminish greatly.

Yes there are lots of bad white people out there but they're much less concentrated within the race.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you play with it at all? It's somewhat flawed--for example, boosting the "prejudice" level to > 85% often leads to diverse, if not stable, communities. But I think it demonstrates the concept well. If a community starts out segregated, it takes being actively displeased with the lack of diversity to get it to change, because people, without a reason to move, won't move.

No I didn't. My point was that when you expand or change the model, you open up a whole new range of possibilities. I'm not particularly interested in how the model is parametrized or what parameters lead to what result.

Again, the point was not the model, but the story.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#57

All men are created equal. Except Blacks. And Muslims. And non-Americans. And Native Americans.

Tell us something we don't all already know?

It's a fact that rich black students on average have a lower IQ and do worse on tests than the poorest of white students. Just as men are different from women, in many ways, blacks are different from whites in many ways. There's no point in trying to hide from it.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#58

"It would be foolish to despise tradition. But with our growing self-consciousness and increasing intelligence we must begin to control tradition and assume a critical attitude toward it, if human relations are ever to change for the better. We must try to recognize what in our accepted tradition is damaging to our fate and dignity—and shape our lives accordingly." Key takeaway, in my opinion, and this extends beyond…

What you quoted above gives credence that another quote attributed to Einstein actually is his. I can even recognise the tone in the segment about Aristotle and his views about slavery.

The quote in question? "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein

Even if it was misattributed, it's still one hell of a motto to live by.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, once communities start out segregated, they stay segregated.

Unfortunately Why is it unfortunate? No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Sure, they may say they would to save political face, or to look benevolent or "tolerant" and progressive, but deep down? No. The difference in crime rates and quality of life is just astounding. To prefer to live amongst more blacks is to prefer to be more at r…

I think you need to take a look at crime statistics again. They're income-based, not race-based. In the United States, poor often also means minority, but it's not race that makes inner cities violent. It's destitution, and the desperation it causes.

Re: Einstein: The Negro Question (1946)

#60
Many a sincere person will answer: "Our attitude towards Negroes is the result of unfavorable experiences which we have had by living side by side with Negroes in this country. They are not our equals in intelligence, sense of responsibility, reliability."

I am firmly convinced that whoever believes this suffers from a fatal misconception.

Although it has clear political implications, the last part of the quote-within-a-quote ("They are not our equals…") is a scientific hypothesis. Does it strike you that people who take the opposite view of Einstein's—or who even consider its possibility—are treated as merely mistaken? As suffering from a misconception? No—they are treated with opprobrium, condemned with epithets (racist, fascist, etc.), and purged from civil society.

No reasonable person denies that the ancestors of slaves were mistreated, but as an explanation for group differences this is not mutually exclusive with cultural or biological factors that may have nothing to do with past oppression. Unfortunately, this subject is not treated as a scientific matter—it has become a political fight. Einstein appears to be "ahead of his time" not because of the triumph of his scientific arguments but because his political allies have been consistently advancing.

Post reply on HN