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The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

nytimes.com

241–250 of 288 posts

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#241
post #238
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely bonkers when you lay it all out there. On $100k of family of 4 household income... it's a combination of actively paying taxes, and missing out on credits; Payroll taxes* = $ 15,300 Federal income taxes = $ 6,500 CA income taxes = $ 4,000 ACA Subsidy = $ 12,000 Food Stamps = $ 8,000 EITC = $ 5,000 Disability = up to $30,000 if applicable Energy credits = ??? Housing credits = ??? Waived fees = ??? Som…

- The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. If you are going too call that a tax on you, then you need to call your income $115,300 for the purposes of the % calculation. - You can't subtract the opportunity cost of not working from your income when you make $115k, because you've made the decision to work and earn that salary. - The EITC is for people who work (hence the "earned" part). If you chose to…

> The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k.

Actually, only half (the employer share) is.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#242
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered about this. I often do interviews and say, "This guy isn't gangbusters, but he could help us out with if he's willing to work for the right price." My bosses usually wince at that sentiment, probably because I'm underestimating how much overhead is or something, but there should be a number that makes it worth it, right? And if the guy ends up being smart and reliable, you could ask him to retrain for a…

If your company is having that discussion in the context of full time employment, the indirect costs (i.e. non-salary things like health insurance, 401(k) matching, etc) are a significant factor in the equation. As salary drops, these (relatively fixed) indirect costs become a larger percentage of the cost of retaining someone. If you measure the value of the employee by the salary you pay him or her, the ratio of to…

Retraining an unemployed philosophy major to run tests and route bug reports seems feasible as well. There are armies of people that would kill to be a barrista (with benefits) or an administrative assistant. Are you saying Starbucks can find a way to make them more productive than they cost, but engineering organizations can't?

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#243
post #238
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely bonkers when you lay it all out there. On $100k of family of 4 household income... it's a combination of actively paying taxes, and missing out on credits; Payroll taxes* = $ 15,300 Federal income taxes = $ 6,500 CA income taxes = $ 4,000 ACA Subsidy = $ 12,000 Food Stamps = $ 8,000 EITC = $ 5,000 Disability = up to $30,000 if applicable Energy credits = ??? Housing credits = ??? Waived fees = ??? Som…

- The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. If you are going too call that a tax on you, then you need to call your income $115,300 for the purposes of the % calculation. - You can't subtract the opportunity cost of not working from your income when you make $115k, because you've made the decision to work and earn that salary. - The EITC is for people who work (hence the "earned" part). If you chose to…

> FICA / Payroll Taxes

I run a business, from my perspective the meaningful number is the total payroll cost for the employee. Taxes are taken before it even leaves my pocket and goes to the employee, and then more and more taxes by the time the employee finally sees it. You can't waive away the taxes just because the law says you can't show the true tax burden on the pay stub.

> Opportunity Cost

There are real, direct, added costs to choosing to work. It's reasonable to subtract those from salary when trying to calculate the net benefit of working. Just like there's an opportunity cost for waiting in line for bread. It's a real thing.

> $115300 -> $78,900 vs. $0 -> $44,011 (for a gap of $35k)

First, you can't take home quite $78,900 on $115,300 -- you've shifted up income but haven't adjusted taxes accordingly. From my perspective that employee is earning more like $140,000 (you can't just waive away the cost of paying for all those benefits that otherwise would be provided free by the government, just because they are taken out of your earnings before you see them).

Second, you can't just count $100 / pay period as the cost of insurance. It's the full cost of the plan (up to almost $24k / year for Platinum insurance for a family of 4) that has to be paid every two weeks at payday. Benefits are tax advantaged income, income paid out before you see it, but income all the same. If you are self-employed all this becomes obvious, but if you've never worked outside a W-2 the true cost is very much hidden out-of-sight.

Employer group insurance plans are more expensive than individual plans, which are obviously way more expensive than free means-tested plans. Going from $0 -> $30k you lose about $8k of value from losing Medi-Cal and going to the Cost-Shared Silver Plan. Going from $30k -> $60k you lose another $12k of subsidies. "Total actuary value" of having Medi-Cal is around $20k / yr for a family of 4. So if you are at $0 income, it's not just +$12k for ACA subsidies, it's more like +$20k for Medi-Cal since it's comparable coverage to a Platinum plan.

Third, yes the EITC phases-in and phases-out, it doesn't mean it's not a cost you pay for earning more. It's a curve and it's not a straight line, but it's still a real refundable tax credit that is clawed back as earnings increase over $24k. I agree it's impossible to maximize all benefits concurrently, it's a very complex equation with local and global minima/maxima. One day I really hope to be able to program it and put in on GitHub.

> Making financial progress on $100k income is challenging

So very true! Even per all your numbers, which are way more conservative than mine... the 'net benefit' to the family of earning "$115,300" of income (~$140k payroll) is only $35,000 !! (the gap)

And if you dig deep into all the assistance available, start counting things like income-based rent control, income-based property tax limits, income-based car registration fees, income-based electricity bills, etc.... you can easily erode that $35k down to more like $15k.

Isn't that just astounding?! Starting at $140k of employee payroll expense, by the end of the year you've only added $15k of net cash benefit to the family?!

As they say, "What the actual fuck!"

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#244
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. If you are going too call that a tax on you, then you need to call your income $115,300 for the purposes of the % calculation. - You can't subtract the opportunity cost of not working from your income when you make $115k, because you've made the decision to work and earn that salary. - The EITC is for people who work (hence the "earned" part). If you chose to…

> The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. Actually, only half (the employer share) is.

My Macroeconomics 101 class claimed it's been "proven" the full cost of payroll taxes is born by the employee. It's obvious when you are self-employed that's the case, it's less obvious on W-2, but the net effect is the same.

Going from "Payroll Cost" on the Company Income Statement to "Net Benefit" on the Family Annual Budget, $140,000 becomes about $15,000, and actually often times much less, or negative.

You have to take a careful accounting of where all the money is going, and what your expenses would have been had you NOT earned any of that money, and just stayed home. Unfortunately, it's an extremely demoralizing exercise.

If you go a step further, and even say I'm going to earn some gray-market money off-the-books from home instead of taxable income... then you really do just throw in the towel. But all the numbers I'm quoting are assuming the completely legal and above-board approach.

The good news for all the self-employed boot-strapping startups out there; STOP paying yourself. It's the absolute worst use of your company's cash. If you take a full and honest accounting, you aren't actually paying yourself anything, you're mostly just paying government taxes and forgoing government benefits. Think of it as the unwritten startup tax credit if it makes you feel better! :-)

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#245
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely bonkers when you lay it all out there. On $100k of family of 4 household income... it's a combination of actively paying taxes, and missing out on credits; Payroll taxes* = $ 15,300 Federal income taxes = $ 6,500 CA income taxes = $ 4,000 ACA Subsidy = $ 12,000 Food Stamps = $ 8,000 EITC = $ 5,000 Disability = up to $30,000 if applicable Energy credits = ??? Housing credits = ??? Waived fees = ??? Som…

> * Don't be fooled by the employer hiding half the cost from you. You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income. > Every progressive subsidy is mathematically equivalent to a progressive tax. Wrong. You've basically made the same error as you did with employer share of payroll tax -- a progressive subsidy is arguably analogous to (but "mathematically equivalen…

> You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income.

I agree with you, but I think I did that. I was trying to say $100,000 of payroll expense causes $15,300 of payroll taxes. Then the other taxes, and subsidy phase-outs, pile on from there.

> Its absolutely not even similar, much less "mathematically equivalent", to the latter alone, which is how you presented it.

You are right, they are not "mathematically equivalent", let me try again;

By "progressive subsidy" I mean a declining benefit as you earn more. That is, income from the government which decreases as you earn more. An example is Medi-Cal and ACA subsidies, food stamps, shit we didn't even mention SSI, etc.

By "progressive tax" I mean an increasing tax rate as you earn more. That is, an increasing number of cents out of each dollar in payroll expense is confiscated as you earn more. An example is Federal Income Tax.

The progressive subsidy offsets the benefit of early income, the progressive tax offsets the benefit of later income. The net effect is reducing the vast majority if not all of the the "Realized Family Benefit" from $0 - $150,000 of [household] payroll expense! I mean, it's disgusting to think about that way, but it's the economics of the system we've created.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#246
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Don't be fooled by the employer hiding half the cost from you. You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income. > Every progressive subsidy is mathematically equivalent to a progressive tax. Wrong. You've basically made the same error as you did with employer share of payroll tax -- a progressive subsidy is arguably analogous to (but "mathematically equivalen…

> You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income. I agree with you, but I think I did that. I was trying to say $100,000 of payroll expense causes $15,300 of payroll taxes. Then the other taxes, and subsidy phase-outs, pile on from there. > Its absolutely not even similar, much less "mathematically equivalent", to the latter alone, which is how you presented it.…

> > You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income.

> I agree with you, but I think I did that.

You did not. Or you calculated the tax wrong, but it looks more like the former than the latter.

> I said $100,000 of payroll causes $15,300 of payroll taxes.

You said when "earning" $100k, you pay $15,300 of payroll tax, you did not say $100k of payroll causes $15,300 of payroll tax -- and interpreting earning in the usual way for such a discussion (i.e., the income shown on your pay stub subject to payroll tax) -- this is exactly correct; at $100k of such income, the total payroll tax (employer + employee share, Social Security + Medicare) is exactly $15,300.

If you are looking at the employer's payroll expense, however, though, that's not $100k, its at least $107,650 (the employee's income subject to payroll tax -- which includes the employee share of the tax -- plus the employer share of the tax.)

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#247
post #171

>Some countries have developed policies that encourage older people to leave the labor force, so they do not “crowd out” younger workers Classic lump of labor fallacy.

You've alerted us to the existence of a fallacy, but you make no effort to explain what the fallacy is or how the argument you are refuting has committed this fallacy. You did this in a previous discussion with me as well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8691296 Of course, you are absolutely free to do this if you wish. But I did take the time to explain why I felt you had misdiagnosed the situation, and explaine…

Fair enough.

The main reason why there is a lump of labor fallacy is that it rests on the fact that there is just a fixed quantity of jobs in the economy. A fixed amount of jobs means that thers is only a fixed amount of goods and services people desire. But this is wrong because human wants and desires are unlimited. This is the basic condition in economics. So in theory there is an infinite amount of jobs to be done to cater to our infinite wants.

Now, there are structural reasons for why there isn't universal employment. These can range from government policies, to technological reasons. If people want multistoried houses, and builders can build them, they will have jobs but if the government has policies which block those houses, the builders will not have those jobs. Another thing people want is to travel into space, say a visit to alpha centauri. There may be tourism operator jobs who can do that but technology does not exist which can take us there.

The main focus of government policies to promote and encourage job growth should be on building technology to promote new job creating industries, promoting skills growth to manage these industries, and removing or modifying policies which hinder job growth.

If trade or immigration caused a loss of jobs, the 90s would have been a time of high unemployment. It wasn't because a new industry came up to generate jobs and other jobs were created to service those workers. The same goes for policies to shorten hours or promote early retirement.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#248
post #243
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. If you are going too call that a tax on you, then you need to call your income $115,300 for the purposes of the % calculation. - You can't subtract the opportunity cost of not working from your income when you make $115k, because you've made the decision to work and earn that salary. - The EITC is for people who work (hence the "earned" part). If you chose to…

> FICA / Payroll Taxes I run a business, from my perspective the meaningful number is the total payroll cost for the employee. Taxes are taken before it even leaves my pocket and goes to the employee, and then more and more taxes by the time the employee finally sees it. You can't waive away the taxes just because the law says you can't show the true tax burden on the pay stub. > Opportunity Cost There are real, dire…

> First, you can't take home quite $78,900 on $115,300 -- you've shifted up income but haven't adjusted taxes accordingly.

While grandparent made an error of including both halves of the payroll tax, when only the employer share should have been added, the point is that employer share (while it can be considered "income" of a sort that goes directly into paying payroll taxes), isn't taxable income subject to any other taxes, so properly counting it as part of the "income" number if you are counting the whole payroll tax (including employer share) as part of the tax expense doesn't shift up the taxes, it just correctly accounts for the income that goes with the taxes originally presented.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#249
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income. I agree with you, but I think I did that. I was trying to say $100,000 of payroll expense causes $15,300 of payroll taxes. Then the other taxes, and subsidy phase-outs, pile on from there. > Its absolutely not even similar, much less "mathematically equivalent", to the latter alone, which is how you presented it.…

> > You can't count it as a cost on you without adding the value of the employer share to your base income. > I agree with you, but I think I did that. You did not. Or you calculated the tax wrong, but it looks more like the former than the latter. > I said $100,000 of payroll causes $15,300 of payroll taxes. You said when "earning" $100k, you pay $15,300 of payroll tax, you did not say $100k of payroll causes $15,30…

Are we not saying the same thing two different ways?

Earning $100k to me means providing services worth $100k. It's obvious when it's 1099 or self-employment. On a $100,000 '1099' or Schedule C income you owe $15,300 of payroll tax. I pulled the number straight from Schedule SE, Line 5. You will pay less income tax as a result, due to the 1/2 (e.g. $7650) deduction from income tax on Line 6. (I tried to account for that in my estimated $6500 of Federal Income Tax due, an effective 6.5% rate)

Somewhere along the line the Fed tricked us into subtracting 7.65% off our W-2 compensation before we even see it, and even got us to think we didn't even earn it. It's fully institutionalized now. It's like VAT being baked in and no one thinks they're paying the tax, but they are!

In my earning $100k example, the reported "Compensation" on the W-2 would be only 100,000 / 1.0765 = $92,893. My point is your W-2 is lying. The company is paying $100k for your services, and the IRS has their fingers in it before you even see it.

Anyway, we are arguing a very minor point to a very serious issue. I think I've provided enough numbers that are accurate enough to see the insanity of the whole system. It doesn't really matter when in the "pipeline" the $7,650 is confiscated. It's enough to know that FICA is 15.3% of every dollar up to $117,000 per person, $234,000 per household.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#250
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The $15,300 in payroll tax is over and above your 100k. Actually, only half (the employer share) is.

My Macroeconomics 101 class claimed it's been "proven" the full cost of payroll taxes is born by the employee. It's obvious when you are self-employed that's the case, it's less obvious on W-2, but the net effect is the same. Going from "Payroll Cost" on the Company Income Statement to "Net Benefit" on the Family Annual Budget, $140,000 becomes about $15,000, and actually often times much less, or negative. You have…

> My Macroeconomics 101 class claimed it's been "proven" the full cost of payroll taxes is born by the employee.

Whether or not that's true, that's already reflected in you showing the full cost of payroll taxes (employee + employer share) as an expense to the employee. What you failed to do is show all of the income that pays that expense (including the money from the employer that goes directly to paying the employer share) as part of the income from which that cost was being paid.

> The good news for all the self-employed boot-strapping startups out there; STOP paying yourself. It's the absolute worst use of your company's cash.

Perhaps its worse for your company, OTOH, it mitigates the risk to you should the company -- as many do -- fail, since in that case you will have forgone labor income for equity in the failed firm.

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