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Google to close engineering office in Russia

reuters.com

211–220 of 308 posts

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#211
post #156
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean, it seems like Putin wants to go back straight to Soviet era. There were many different soviet eras, each with their own problems and strengths. Putin's doing his own thing. Just because he's becoming more authoritarian doesn't mean he's becoming Soviet.

He controls all law enforcement and mass media, restricts freedom of speech, prosecutes political competition, enables corruption and connections-with-benefits, and has everyone eat this crap because patriotism. I struggle to recall a soviet era without these traits.

Why not rattle off every fascist and authoritarian regime, then? Why not say he's acting the corrupt autocrat, i.e. every bad guy in every civilization since pre-history.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#212
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not parsing anything incorrectly. > _in presence of minors_ so, anywhere in public? where would one find space to hold a public event where children are guaranteed to not be present? Also the whole line of reasoning is that mentioning homosexuality to children makes them gay which is... bad? thats a value judgment on homosexuality that was put in place by the government, yet you are trying to constantly say that…

I don't know if you have kids but I do. I don't want my kids to be exposed to any form of expression supporting any sexual lifestyle. In fact, I don't event want my kids to see a blurred photo of Kim Kardashian's naked butt on TV. There is zero prejudice in this value statement. And most parents agree with my position. When my kids are adults they can decide about sexual relationships for themselves. Until then I dec…

[deleted]

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#213
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same. Don't twist my words. I said governments are becoming more authoritarian. I stand by this statement.

You falsely equated the actions of a few berserk local cops in the US with the Putin regime. You need people to twist your words so that you don't look like an idiot or worse.

It is just ignorant to be unaware of the scale of police brutality in the United States. Educate yourself.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#214
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think it's very appropriate to question media portrayals, I think you crossed a line in suggesting that russian treatment of gays is "a meme." (If I'm interpreting you too strongly, I apologize, but please just skim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia a bit, especially the section on "national law"; for me at least this leaves very little of the governments stance to question) Similarly, when g…

Ok, I skimmed LGBT article. Would you be willing to skim the following white paper on the subject? http://gallery.mailchimp.com/d0e55f3197099944345708652/files...

From the Executive Summary ("10 Things You Didn’t Know About Russia’s Anti-Gay Law & LGBT Rights"):

1. The law never mentions or uses the word gay, lesbian, homosexual or any other LGBT identifier. [Chapter 2 & Appendix]

2. The law focuses on children, it’s title is “On Protections of Minors from Propaganda of Non-Traditional Sexual Relations”. The messaging and strategy to bring the ban on propaganda from the law of several regions to national laws is part of a larger family values push and is based on the successful anti-same sex marriage push in the United States. [Chapter 2]

So it's based on the same semantic BS as the anti-LGBT propoganda coming from the America's religious right. Except that, onerous as they are, they've been largely unsuccessful at having their agenda codified into federal law (not that they wouldn't dearly love to).

The fact that the author states points 1+2 so matter-of-factly (despite the semantic subterfuge) makes is clear where his biases are, and difficult to take any of the other points seriously.

But nonetheless:

3. Russia is actually expanding protections of members of the LGBT community: On September 20, 2013 the official delegation of the Russia Federation announced their willingness to take all required measures to prevent homophobic hate crimes and discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation at the 24th UN Human Rights Council. [Chapter 2]

OK, so there are rays of hope at least.

4. There have been regional (much harsher) versions of the propaganda ban in effect for 7 years and there were only 2 convictions for violations of the regional laws and both were overturned. [Chapter 3]

5. In 6 months of the Federal Law there have been 3 convictions: 2 were acts of civil disobedience to challenge the legality of the law, the other is a story which you must read. [Chapter 3]

My understanding from people either in Russia recently (or from the FSU) is that it's widely understood that these laws are at best barely enforceable (and perhaps not even intended to really enforced). But that's also precisely the point: they're meant to have symbolic effect -- and the symbolic effect is generally taken to be quite chilling (like a shot across the bow, as it were).

6. Statistically you are far more likely to be the victim of an anti-LGBT Hate Crime in the United States than in Russia. [Chapter 4]

Seems dubious, given what my friends tell me. Most likely these crimes simply aren't reported, or the stats are suppressed (given the way crime stats are routinely manipulated in many countries, including the U.S.).

7. In Russia you cannot be fired from your job for being an LGBT individual, in the United States you can. [Chapter 4]

Possibly a valid point; I wouldn't know.

8. Since 1993 gay sex was made legal in Russia, in 12 US States gay sex is a crime. [Chapter 4]

Technically correct (in that those laws are still on the books in some states). But the more important fact is that the Supreme Court famously ruled these laws unconstitutional in 2010. Which is a rather important omission for the author to make actually; it suggests he's not really all that on top of things, as far as the basic status of gay rights in the U.S. are concerned. (Or perhaps he does -- and is, again, playing semantic head games).

9. While President Obama says “I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them.” his policies demonstrate he has nothing but patience. [Chapter 5]

This, sadly, is basically true. But it's also an attemp to change the subject.

10. The group impacted most if found to be in violation of the law: Multinational corporations. [Chapter 6]

No. It's millions of LGBTs in the Russian Federation, young and old, unable to live their lives openly, and constitutionally protected from prosecution for simply being what they are.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#215
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same. Don't twist my words. I said governments are becoming more authoritarian. I stand by this statement.

Judging by your other comments, your intent is pretty clear but I'll bite. I strongly disagree that governments are becoming more authoritarian, it's quite the opposite, governments are becoming more liberal and democratic, with the situation improving even in countries such as Libya, Egypt and Morocco. The only reason for why the situation seems bleak to some people is because access to information has become unhind…

>>> with the situation improving even in countries such as Libya, Egypt and Morocco

I don't know enough about Morocco to call you out on that one, but dude... Libya and Egypt? If the current goings-on in those countries forms the basis of your opinion then I think you might need to rethink your position

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he means that most tech workers there wouldn't be just fired. They would be offered relocation packages. It is better than being just fired, thus it would be well received. (Don't forget that although you think that Moscow is in the middle of Siberia and the city is a one big communist radioactive dump that you saw in the movies, actually, the reality is far from it. People there are surprisingly happy, good…

>Europe is just 3 hours on an airplane from there. I thought everything west of the Ural mountains/river (including Moscow) was considered Europe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#Definition

I might be wrong, but I think in the context of discussing Russia it is pretty standard to use the word Europe, assuming 'Europe, excluding Russia/USSR'. Specifically I was talking about a typical flight to a EU country for business/tourism.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#217
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disregarding the job/compensation aspects, I'm sure many Russian Googlers would love a chance to live in a real functioning country, even if temporarily.

They'll soon find out that Zürich has become a quite boring overpopulated (in comparision to the finit 'nice hidden corners') place...

Compared to Moscow/SPb they won't possibly note that.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning. Internet became regulated in Russia, and what? How does this relate to hacking on V8 engine, for example? (They have such teem in Saint Petersburg) This article appeared just to support sentiment and noise around how bad/evil Russia is doing. No matter of truth or plausibility, all kind of noise just works.

It's not "Russia" that is evil. It's Putin's regime that is increasingly evil.

>It's not "Russia" that is evil. It's Putin's regime that is increasingly evil.

with 82% (after significant drop recently!) approval rating :)

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#219
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which I have to think will be well received. sorry I can't read the english here, do you expect it to be well received (why? seems like it would be a though choice for many people even with a relocation package) or are you expressing hope it will be?

At least in term of compensation, Zurich is hard to beat.

You can also throw in:

- One of the best health care systems in the world

- Incredible educational system

- Technology and innovation

- Compact, well run government

- Some of the lowest crime rates in the world

- Ski much? Some of the best ski resorts in the world are in the Swiss Alps. If you don't, then you still have some breath taking scenery to look at.

Not sure you could find a better place to live than Switzerland. For the Google employees in Russia, this must be a dream come true.

Switzerland by all accounts, is the exact opposite of Russia.

Re: Google to close engineering office in Russia

#220
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Romanian, a country that's pretty close to Russia and I am one that suffers for what the Ukrainians are going through with Russia, because I can see how the same thing could happen in Basarabia (Moldova) and there are already signs of that. Russia historically has been occupying territories, getting rid of any political dissent by effectively killing or deporting people, while crushing their national identity.…

Your country was of enormous help to Hitler while attacking the USSR, and the retribution you had to "endure", given everything you did, was astonishingly mild. So spare me your complaints.

> given everything you did

Man, it's 2014, the people that did anything in WW2 on both sides are long dead.

And in the context of that time, "the Allies" included Stalin's Russia (read some history, this tyrant killed more of his own people than there were victims of Hitler's holocaust!), so choosing to support Hitler's Germany against an alliance that included Russia was not necessarily a bad idea at that that time, even morally and ethically speaking.

And concerning post-war "retribution" as a way to handle international relationships after a war: basically the only reason Hitler himself came to power in Germany was because this country had to endure an extremely harsh "retribution" post WW1 so maybe the people that made this harsh post WW1 deal really deserved the killings and destruction of WW2! Post WW2 western European countries all benefited from something called the Marshall Plan from the US and of decades of productive cooperation in the EU, regardless of who did what in WW2, whereas the "Eastern Block" countries all got to endure "retribution" and being part of the unhealthy forced economy of the USSR.

International politics is something that should be taken separately from concepts such as "fairness" and "correctitude" and "punishing someone for one's bad deeds". You don't punish a whole people for the consequences of what a leader decided, even if they followed that leader. You try to rebuild countries and economies, regardless of what seems "fair" or not, and you try to accelerate economical growth, even if this even means letting 1 in 10 war criminals get away. You optimize social and economical systems for performance so that they can provide the best average "quality of live", even if this means swallowing some shady politics once in a while and occasionally "forgetting" some historical truths when remembering them is not "productive".

Thankfully the US, UK and modern Germany get these basic principles right, and I really hope they will have as much of an influence as possible on international politics, in the detriment of Russia and China who, despite the immense economic growth of the last, haven't really gotten to the level where they really understand what "healthy modern democracy" is all about and know how to play "the game" and also make the people happy.

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