The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead • Hacker News Board

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#161

Post by xrange » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

Axsuul wrote: post #34

jsilva wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "privileged classes", not sure i understood your idea ?

He means those that belong to "privileged classes" usually don't have liabilities such as student loans to pay off and therefore have the freedom to pursue endeavors such as startups which don't pay the bills upfront. Furthermore, their support network is also a significant factor.

And of course the vast majority of the world would consider someone with student loan debt to belong to a "priviledged class".

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#162

Post by pmorici » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

ceallen wrote: post #99

bluedino wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disability rate of 20-30 year olds really jumped in the last few years.

Possible result of Iraq/Afghanistan wars? The army's reported 1 million injured, but I'm not sure how many of them transitioned to disability. Would disabled veterans be reflected in these numbers?

No, disability for injured veterans is separate from Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) that is available to the general population.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#163

Post by MCRed » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #106

MCRed wrote: post #2

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I have some money coming from side projects, several opportunities to grow that, and several opportunities for new side projects. And quite a long personal runway before I have to…

I don't think the majority of the long-term unemployed are unemployed because they're working on tech startups.

I don't know the proportions at all, didn't mean to imply the majority were.

However, it is a trend that there are a lot more people becoming independant and making their money online via various ways (not all of which are startups, most of which are probably what would be called "lifestyle businesses" here, though I hate that term) and thus not counted on the "employment rolls".

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#164

Post by protomyth » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #120

wtbob wrote: post #108

> People in the military, prison and institutions are excluded from these figures. One of these is not like the other… Everyone in the military (at least, who's not also imprisoned) should count as fully-employed.

I think the reason they excluded those in the military is to allow an apples-to-apples comparison through time. It could be argued that the large number of draftees through the early 1970's forced some otherwise nonemployed into employment.

I think you are right, but I think they are wrong for doing it given the importance of the military in a lot of regions and the military being a known career path for many young males.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#165

Post by MCRed » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:57 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #23

MCRed wrote: post #2

Look ma, that's me! Free of a soul crushing corporate job, back to doing a "startup", I may not have the cash rolling in, but at least I'm in control of my destiny. Hey Ma, I'm moving in! I think there are a lot of people out there like me. I have some money coming from side projects, several opportunities to grow that, and several opportunities for new side projects. And quite a long personal runway before I have to…

I have never had 'a job' and had startups (and later mature companies) since I was 15 (I am 40 now). I am not sure what age you are, but you need to know this thing for sure if you are past, I think, around 30 as running a life like this can be very painful. There simply is a tiny chance of 'big success' while most just live in almost poverty the first 20-30 years of doing this. That's also why I think you are probab…

I'm older than you. Have done this before, spent 6 years "unemployed" traveling the world before I "got a job" that turned out to be a terrible decision.

Of course you don't have control over your destiny to the point of just wishing you had a million bucks... but I also now don't have a psychotic boss whose only experience has been in the military micromanaging software development and doing everything he can to "control" things without any understanding of software development.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#166

Post by IndianAstronaut » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:58 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #20

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One common trend I have seen in my social circle is the lack of any employable skills. They may or may not have college degrees, but in general their degrees did not give them concrete job skills or they don't have a degree and no skilled trade. What would ideally happen is people learn a skilled trade if they are stuck on the job market. This training should also happen in high school.

Except the education system is bad at picking winners. What's in demand when you're in highschool is not what's in demand by the time you're entering the workforce.

It's not about picking winners. It is about giving students at least one practical skill early on, then letting them choose what they want to do.

I am a programmer, but I can also weld and fix cars. This is because in high school I took some auto shop classes. Let's say for some odd reason programming doesn't work out anymore as a career(this is happening to lawyers and pharmacists), I have something to fall back on.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#167

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

npx wrote: post #59

Are there any notable instances of unqualified founders beating the odds and starting a successful business?

[deleted]

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#168

Post by zaroth » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 5:00 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

The silent yet steady substitution of unemployment benefits with federal disability insurance is well covered in an episode of This American Life [1]. We, as a country, have a shoddy system for re-training low-skills workers facing technological obsolescence. We have also set up a system under which unemployment benefits are largely a state liability. Disability, on the other hand, is federally funded. The intersecti…

And it's not just disability benefits. When you stop and really analyze it; Medicaid and health insurance credits, SSI, food stamps, EITC, FICA, progressive income tax rates, refundable tax credits, phased-out tax deductions, even things like housing and energy assistance, etc.

There's easily $60,000 of services, utilities, fees, and taxes that you pay when earning $100k, that you get for free or don't have to pay if you earn $0. As @fredophile says, then you still have to add in the direct/indirect costs of going out and earning that money (e.g. childcare for starters), and you can easily gain net-zero or negative benefit all the way up to $100k of household income.

I'm sure people must have researched this extensively, and can give a properly cited cost analysis, but it's something I've been calling the 'middle class crucible'. Until you break out on the other side of $150k household income, the vast majority of your earned income is effectively running on a treadmill. E.g. On the order of 80 cents of each dollar you earn.

Every progressive (means-tested) social support program or tax rate, by definition, is a penalty for working. These programs have grown so big, and phase-out so aggressively in the income curve, it's an incredible trap / attack against the middle class.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#169

Post by MCRed » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 5:02 PM UTC

asgard1024 wrote: post #36

shutupalready wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> companies hoarding cash instead of spending it I've heard this sentiment many times but I've wondered if there's an economic fallacy there. Would the economy be better off if lots of companies stopped hoarding cash and hired lots of new employees? Or would there be side-effects like inflation, or some effect of pulling out cash from whatever it was invested in, etc.? Serious question.

First of all, you have to understand that "state where everybody is better off" is not something that's given. Everybody can be rational and still be worse off - prisoner's dilemma is a canonical example. Economic fallacy there is, but it's in standard economic theory. Standard economics claims that only sensible things to do are investment and consumption, and considers savings to be a waste. But the savings are not…

I think to say the economy as a whole suffers is too broad, and falls into the trap of people who really are advocating a consumption oriented society.

For instance, you could spend your money constantly hiring more employees to do more work and to grow.

Or you could save your money, until you have enough to build a new modern factory that produces the product much more efficiently. That efficiency lets you pay your fewer employees more, but overall lets the business grow more reliably.

In your example, Company A is better for the economy because it will last a lot longer than Company B.

Companies failing does more economic damage than a company saving its profits for several years.

Re: The Rise of Men Who Don’t Work – And What They Do Instead

#170

Post by drzaiusapelord » Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 5:05 PM UTC

ColinCera wrote: post #128

bluedino wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disability rate of 20-30 year olds really jumped in the last few years.

There's quite a lot of disability fraud going on, some of it downright shocking. Example #1: A couple of weeks ago, my brother, an orthopedist, had a 26-year-old man come in for an ankle sprain. In the course of working up the ankle -- mildly sprained, no problem -- he found that the patient doesn't work and is on 100% disability. Why? Because of acne. Yes, acne. Apparently when he was 19 or 20 he had such severe acn…

This stuff is very common, especially here in Chicago with the unions running a fairly corrupt machine. I really wish something could be done. We're taxed hard and money is spent in reckless ways by the government like this. Doesn't seem fair to those of us who actually work to make this money.

Worse, there is no solution is site. Who is going to arrest these crooked cops? Other cops? They're on the take as well.

>He recently retired, at age 52, and now will draw a $70,000/year pension for the next few decades

Illinois has a pension crisis we can't get out of because of this. These union handouts and insane pensions that are 100% unaffordable. Right now every man, woman, and child in Illinois owes $26,000 in taxes to pay these pensions out. Who is going to pay this stuff?