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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

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Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#571

Post by mcv »

kuhhk wrote: post #222
cryoshon wrote: post #124

A few things: The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. I hope this dissuades some of their remaining voter base from continuing to support them. Clapper has issued a rebuttal, claiming that the report isn't neutral. I assume he also supports torture. Not sure that he has any credibility left after being caught on the record lying to congress, but whatever. The White House atte…

> The Republicans have issued a rebuttal. I assume this means they support torture. Stop assuming Republicans support torture. McCain comments on the report: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mcc...

Is McCain's opinion shared by the rest of the Republicans? If so, then getting justice done should not be a problem. My impression is that McCain is pretty alone, though.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#572

Post by clebio »

rayiner wrote: post #405
clebio wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've assumed this theory prima facie for a while. Further examples are movies glorifying war (Homefront, Lone Survivor). As coldtea mentions, it could be considered a form of moving the Overton window .

As 'angibrowl points out, the movie trope of the good guy that isn't constrained by procedural rules is very old.[1] The 1980's action movie catalogue is full of it. Moving the Overton window doesn't even make sense in this context. Moving it from where? We're talking about a country full of people that vociferously supported bombing harmless Vietnamese villages off the map. Aside from maybe the folks who grew up in…

In related news: https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/543077220601044992?s...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#573

Post by CWuestefeld »

dragonwriter wrote: post #545
wfn wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

..but on the other hand, the US is not part of the ICC (it hasn't signed the 1998 Rome Statute of the ICC), and it also has this jolly federal law in place (2002): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... The new law authorizes the use of military force to liberate any American or citizen of a U.S.-allied country being held by the court, which is located in The Hague. This provision, dubbed the…

This is not entirely correct; the US is not a party to the Rome Statute, true, but it in fact Bill Clinton did sign the Rome Statute, but it was never submitted for ratification, and George W. Bush's administration sent a note purporting to retract the signature (as a means of avoid obligations that attach to signatories to treaties even prior to ratification under the Vienna Convention on Treaties, specifically, the…

I'm not sure what the president's signature, or retraction of signature, should be expected to mean. The key is its ratification by the Senate.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#574

Post by patronagezero »

mcv wrote: post #566
patronagezero wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics will not get us out of this mess, but it sure is an easy ride if that's the limitations of your efforts.

What other option is there? Revolution? If you can't get enough people together to vote the current crooks out of office, you certainly have no hope of staging a revolution. In the end, these people need to be prosecuted in order to lock them up. That means the DoJ needs to do its job, but in the corrupt system of the US, it also means that Congress needs to understand the gravity of the situation.

Maybe people don't vote because they are disenchanted with the system they don't believe works as it was supposed to? Where the heck do you get off saying if people aren't capable of the desire to vote, a revolution isn't possible?

Consider for a moment: you can vote for spam or canned tuna.

Hilarious.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#575

Post by patronagezero »

mcv wrote: post #567
programmarchy wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root of the problem is that the state is a monopoly on violence. What is a "citizen" supposed to do? Vote for the red master or the blue master next time? It makes no difference. The best thing a "citizen" can do is recognize the state is foundationally unethical and has no legitimate political authority and never did. [1] Once we leave behind the mysticism of state authority, perhaps we can find better ways to o…

How is that going to help you? Going rogue on your own is not going to get these people in prison, or prevent that it will happen again. You need people on your side. You need a majority of Americans on your side. And once you've got that, you can vote the politicians out of office, elect some better ones, and finally see justice done. And maybe before that, you can use the threat of this happening to get the current…

You keep playing their games. I'm going to get busy looking for solutions with an actual possibility of success.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#576

Post by path411 »

grecy wrote: post #541
zghst wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the US is alone in torture? This is child's play compared to what happens in China or Russia. You are mistaken if the US is the only one.

Cool, comparing the US to developing countries. That's setting the bar low.

Obviously if we aren't as bad as someone else we don't need to worry about our own misdoings.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#577

Post by mcv »

patronagezero wrote: post #575
mcv wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that going to help you? Going rogue on your own is not going to get these people in prison, or prevent that it will happen again. You need people on your side. You need a majority of Americans on your side. And once you've got that, you can vote the politicians out of office, elect some better ones, and finally see justice done. And maybe before that, you can use the threat of this happening to get the current…

You keep playing their games. I'm going to get busy looking for solutions with an actual possibility of success.

You say that, but your dismissive attitude to the solution sounds like you're doing the exact opposite. Do you really honestly think you can solve the problem on your own?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#578

Post by mcv »

patronagezero wrote: post #574
mcv wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other option is there? Revolution? If you can't get enough people together to vote the current crooks out of office, you certainly have no hope of staging a revolution. In the end, these people need to be prosecuted in order to lock them up. That means the DoJ needs to do its job, but in the corrupt system of the US, it also means that Congress needs to understand the gravity of the situation.

Maybe people don't vote because they are disenchanted with the system they don't believe works as it was supposed to? Where the heck do you get off saying if people aren't capable of the desire to vote, a revolution isn't possible? Consider for a moment: you can vote for spam or canned tuna. Hilarious.

Do you think people are more likely to take up arms against the government than to vote? You're a fool if you do.

How do you think you can stage a revolution with a minority of the population behind you, while the powers that be are as well-armed and as eager to use violence as they are in the US?

You've got a better chance of voting both parties out of office with a minority vote, and fixing the broken system that people are so disenchanted with.

Your mistake is that you believe that the options they're giving you are the only ones. You can make a third option. If you can get enough people behind you to stage a credible revolution, you can easily get enough people to vote for your third option.

It's totally true that the US electoral system is broken and corrupt and doesn't do justice to the vote of the people, but it's not yet to the point that the vote doesn't matter at all. People do still need to vote, and alternatives to the two ruling parties are still legal. You can take advantage of that to stage a much more peaceful revolution through the ballot box.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#579

Post by clebio »

clebio wrote: post #572
rayiner wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As 'angibrowl points out, the movie trope of the good guy that isn't constrained by procedural rules is very old.[1] The 1980's action movie catalogue is full of it. Moving the Overton window doesn't even make sense in this context. Moving it from where? We're talking about a country full of people that vociferously supported bombing harmless Vietnamese villages off the map. Aside from maybe the folks who grew up in…

In related news: https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/status/543077220601044992?s...

And, toward the idea of film as propaganda of what are actually terrible behaviors: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/11306...
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