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The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

economist.com

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Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#51

Post by dragonwriter »

joesmo wrote: post #43
refurb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obvious that the people on the grand juries are not qualified to asses anything and it's an archaic system not employed by any other country This is an odd statement. It's well known that prosecutors have much greater latitude in what they can present as evidence AND the hurdle for proceeding with criminal charges is much lower. The other option is to leave decisions to charge somebody up to the prosecutors them…

No. What I'm suggesting is that in cases of alleged homicide and other grave matters, the case go directly to trial regardless of what the prosecutor wants. In other words, if a case were to go to a grand jury, that's skipped and it goes directly to trial. Thus, all the police homicide cases of recent would be in or be going to trial. If the prosecutor doesn't want to try it, bring in an outside prosecutor whose budd…

> What I'm suggesting is that in cases of alleged homicide and other grave matters, the case go directly to trial regardless of what the prosecutor wants.

How can you have a trial with no one prosecuting?

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#52

Post by sybhn »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #41
sybhn wrote: post #13

some interesting numbers... > This year 46 policemen were shot dead and > the police shot and killed at least 458 people last year 10% or so of death involving police is a policemen. Not that it justify the police force level, but an interesting statistic.

That figure does not even place law enforcement in the top ten most dangerous professions.

Nor it should? I wouldn't want policemen to have the same death on the job as say loggers, if only because you don't want policemen to be reckless/desperate by nature. Anyway, my observation was that ratio it isn't usually expose in pieces I read from other sources :)

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#53

Post by rahimnathwani »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Do they not send you a letter or something when they suspend your licence? It seems strange that they would do it without you knowing.

For the future: belt up before turning on the ignition. Seat belts save lives.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#54

Post by hiou »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #41
sybhn wrote: post #13

some interesting numbers... > This year 46 policemen were shot dead and > the police shot and killed at least 458 people last year 10% or so of death involving police is a policemen. Not that it justify the police force level, but an interesting statistic.

That figure does not even place law enforcement in the top ten most dangerous professions.

Automobile accidents, are by far the most lethal part of US life outside of disease. This is no different for police officers.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#55

Post by meowface »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

Can't say I blame the cop for any of that. 2 blocks is plenty long enough to get into an accident. And he has no other choice if you're driving on a suspended license.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#56

Post by thrownaway2424 »

sybhn wrote: post #52
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That figure does not even place law enforcement in the top ten most dangerous professions.

Nor it should? I wouldn't want policemen to have the same death on the job as say loggers, if only because you don't want policemen to be reckless/desperate by nature. Anyway, my observation was that ratio it isn't usually expose in pieces I read from other sources :)

Sure. Any statement like that has to be read based on the averages, though. 4.7 per 100k Americans are intentionally murdered every year, and there's about 780k police officers, so you'd expect just from that background number ~37 homicides of cops every year.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#57

Post by joesmo »

figure_c wrote: post #7
anigbrowl wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree about limits on discretion in these cases. You can't take back homicide, so it's better to hold a trial automatically and air the entire issue out. In cases of justifiable homicide, the justification will be much stronger for having been challenged and considered. The English jurist Lord Hewart said it best: 'Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done.' http://en.wikipedia.or…

Then you run into the problem of innocent, or at least justified, people having their financial lives destroyed defending against murder charges. I don't think it's as simple as "if someone dies there needs to be a trial".

At the absolute least, there should be a trial if the accused is known to have committed the homicide like the cases mentioned in the article. In one case, it was caught on tape, and in cases of a shooting ballistics can easily prove this. I don't think any of the officers mentioned in the article would deny that they had committed homicide, only that it wasn't murder. When there has been a homicide like that and the killer is known, there should never be a case without a trial.

That goes doubly when the killer is a law enforcement officer. If we want to fix the current problems with policing in America, the only way to do that is to hold LEOs to higher standards than everyone else (and ideally stiffer penalties).

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#58

Post by refurb »

rayiner wrote: post #12

The article makes some excellent points, but the comparison to Europe rang a little hollow to me. The U.S. is an order of magnitude more violent than the U.K., and always has been: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... . In 1960 there was no drug war, there was no prohibition, the country was prosperous, but more than eight times as many people were murdered per capita than in the U.K. > Sen…

In 1993-94, years where the per-capita murder rate in the U.S. was 9x higher than in the U.K.,

It's important to keep in mind that murder rates are pretty low in general (save for a handful of countries). It's only when you compare countries to each other that the differences seem large.

In 1993-1994 Canada's murder rate was double that of the UKs. I wouldn't, by an stretch of the imagination say that Canada had a murder problem then.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#59

Post by thrownaway2424 »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

In other words, you're an asshole. It's a shame they gave you back your car at all.

Re: The United States needs to overhaul its law-enforcement system

#60

Post by refurb »

callmeed wrote: post #49

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand local law enforcement. Combined with local governments, courts, and other entities, it just seems like a big racket to keep money flowing. Yesterday, I was pulled over for not buckling my seatbelt until 2 blocks after pulling out of a parking spot. Turns out I had an unresolved fix-it ticket from 2013 which caused my license to be suspended (had no idea). CHP officer accus…

So you don't like cops because you break the law and they go after you for it?
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