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Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

wired.co.uk

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Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#41

Post by Donzo »

phillc73 wrote: post #17
k-mcgrady wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "And you also argue that basically providing links should be illegal" I specifically avoided saying this. By providing those links they 'enabled' downloading of content illegally.

This whole argument disappoints me. Every manufacturer of a DVD or CD Writer has "enabled" illegal copying and potential distribution of copyrighted content. I haven't seen any of those entities reprimanded for their product manufacture.

Major content producers have attacked duplication mediums before and failed:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Univ....

The difference is that the ostensible intent of these products is to enable consumers to make archival copies.

What is the ostensible intent of TPB?

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#42

Post by the8472 »

hackerboos wrote: post #34
the8472 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause Consider it as a litmus test for free speech. Providing links to pirated content, not even the content itself, can easily be seen as free speech.

I think you're really stretching it there. Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Not sharing hashcodes to copyrighted works over the internet.

It stretches both ways. Think of other things that are legally considered free speech, things like corporate campaign spending.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#43

Post by karmacondon »

Many don't agree with the principles of TPB, but Sunde was willing to take risks for what he believed in. He deserves a lot of respect for that no matter what people think about the morality of what he helped to create. Most people go their whole lives without caring strongly about any issue at all, and almost all of those that do care are willing to sacrifice exactly nothing. I'd like to think that I would be willing to give up everything for what I believe is right. But everyone likes to think that. And most of us will never find out, not how Sunde did.

That said, everyone also wants to be a martyr. TPB wasn't about rights or freedoms or standing up to government oppression. People used it primarily to obtain media and software without paying for it. It does sound like a noble crusade when he expands the context to include SOPA or PIPA or net neutrality, but TPB isn't really related to those things and served only as a rallying point for people who feel strongly about them. The ideal of freedom of information is only tangential to fighting the good fights that he listed in the opening of the piece.

The truth is that Sunde didn't have to go to jail. TPB's popularity gave him a platform and helped him to centralize an ideological movement. But there are other ways to do that, significantly more effective ways. Martin Luther King (as an example, not a comparison) went to jail too, but he also went to the right schools, wore a suit and influenced the right people. Creating a popular and morally dubious website is a quick way to put your ideas into the spotlight. But it doesn't last, and it doesn't really change anything. His effort and conviction are genuinely admirable but he's still a long way from winning the battles that matter.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#44

Post by k-mcgrady »

realusername wrote: post #19
k-mcgrady wrote: post #2

He went to jail for creating a website that enabled people to download music and movies without paying for them. Jail is a harsh punishment IMO for that. ACTA/SOPA etc. are all terrible things that we can't allow and we can't allow the internet to become more centralised/controlled by government. But that's not why he went to jail. Enabling illegal downloads of content has little to do with those causes.

And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working…

Netflix isn't the only option. You can use iTunes (which is available in a lot of countries with a large collection). You can buy the DVD online or in a store. You can buy a DVD online from a different country and have it shipped to you. And if ALL of that fails - what right do you have to that content anyway? You might want to give them your money, they might not want it. It sucks but it's a poor justification for piracy.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#45

Post by cturner »

tormeh wrote: post #9
tomp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Manning went to jail for revealing government secrets about government crimes. And Snowden cannot return home because he revealed that people are being spied on. It's very easy to say, "he went to jail because what he did was illegal". It's harder to say "he went to jail despite what he did was right". I support TPB's cause. I believe that non-profit sharing of information should be free.

Wait wait. You're telling me Sunde is comparable to Snowden and Manning? Wat.

There is a watertight rights basis for opposing copyright. Copyright is a major structural threat to our freedoms.

Our governments are founded generally on rights, which extend from a general principle of live-and-let-live. Copyright is an anti-right. Each time it comes into effect, it removes rights away from everyone except the copyright holder.

You might say - that's just words.

But it's not. Both in software and law, when you have permissions systems that mix up positive and negative rights with one side ruining the other one.

That is what we see with copyright. A continuing encroachment on our positive rights on the basis of the state's desire to enforce the anti-right. The state will invade your house, jail and deport you... because of things you're doing with publicly released information and magnetic signals in the privacy of your own home.

Once a positive right has been eroded by a single case of an anti-right winning, that serves as precedent for removing it in other cases.

Have a think about it the next time you're working on a permission system and are tempted to create a permission that denies a right to someone. As you follow it through, you'll find you've created an unholy mess. Stick to positive rights.

Update: hi, haters. Feel free to be constructive, too.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#46

Post by butwhy »

lorddoig wrote: post #22

When did stealing other peoples' life work segue from a guilty necessity to a noble cause? I missed that.

You could say the same thing about Youtube in the beginning. Except for the fact that Youtube was even worse because people were uploading copyrighted material there and it was actually hosted by them and existed in the US. Whereas TPB was in Sweden and only linked to files.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#47

Post by icebraining »

pionar wrote: post #40
realusername wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working…

> there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. Yes, how dare someone not sell their widget everywhere! If Ford won't sell me a car in Argentina, I'll just go steal it! It's a freedom issue! I must be able to legally watch Friends!

The correct analogy is: Ford doesn't sell a Ford in Argentina, but a legal owner of a Ford car offered to give you a copy of hers/his, and you accepted it.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#48

Post by afro88 »

realusername wrote: post #19
k-mcgrady wrote: post #2

He went to jail for creating a website that enabled people to download music and movies without paying for them. Jail is a harsh punishment IMO for that. ACTA/SOPA etc. are all terrible things that we can't allow and we can't allow the internet to become more centralised/controlled by government. But that's not why he went to jail. Enabling illegal downloads of content has little to do with those causes.

And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working…

That's a dangerous line of thinking.

Just because people in the US have legal access to content doesn't mean you're allowed to steal it. You make the assumption that you're entitled to something if it's commercially available to people in other parts of the world. You're not.

Movies and TV Shows aren't basic necessities that you're entitled to. They are luxuries that you can have if companies decide to sell them to you.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#49

Post by the8472 »

pionar wrote: post #40
realusername wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working…

> there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. Yes, how dare someone not sell their widget everywhere! If Ford won't sell me a car in Argentina, I'll just go steal it! It's a freedom issue! I must be able to legally watch Friends!

Maybe a better analogy:

If won't sell cancer drugs for reasonable prices in my country then we will have local companies ignore patents and produce knockoffs instead and sell them at production cost.

Which is exactly what's happening in india for example. Remember that you're not stealing anything. Just making copies.

Of course treating cancer does not have the same societal value as getting hollywood entertainment, but it's still a market failure when the content industry cannot satisfy demand in those countries. And at least turning both eyes is a much better approach than criminalizing millions.

Re: Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?'

#50

Post by vidarh »

hackerboos wrote: post #14
tomp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Manning went to jail for revealing government secrets about government crimes. And Snowden cannot return home because he revealed that people are being spied on. It's very easy to say, "he went to jail because what he did was illegal". It's harder to say "he went to jail despite what he did was right". I support TPB's cause. I believe that non-profit sharing of information should be free.

I wouldn't put Sunde in the same category as Snowden and Manning. The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause like the latter two. It did have a minor effect of disrupting the industry and accelerating the inevitable change in business model for the film and movie industry.

It isn't some noble cause because you presumably believe copyright is moral. To those who believe copyright, copyright in its current form, is an immoral restriction on free speech, it may very well be.
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