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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#221

Post by eru »

ozh wrote: post #76
izacus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, having 20-25 (almost mandatory) days of per year is implemented by law here in most countries of EU. How is that a "wierd" policy? (By "almost mandatory" I mean that at least here, you must use up your vacation days until end of next year.)

Laws in France state that employers have to make sure every employee takes at least 2 consecutive weeks (ie 10 work days) between June & September. So, yes, mandatory.

Taking vacations only outside summer is forbidden in France?

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#222

Post by kriro »

zeidrich wrote: post #132
Arjuna wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link to that study. In "europe" a two week vacation (10 work days) is common/standard. As opposed to American's "long weekends." To that point, if you've ever wondered (as I have) about the differences in philosophy on the topic of vacation between America and Europe, you may enjoy this paper [1]. It attempts to examine those differences. It's entitled "Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work…

I think for many Americans, work is life. You get up, you spend an hour in the commute to work, you spend your 9 hours at work, you spend some more because overtime is expected, you commute home, you watch some reality television and go to bed. At work you have made friends, you spend time browsing the internet, following up on your hobbies, etc. This is where life ends up happening. 8 hours consumed by sleep, or the…

On a somewhat related note, one of the things that irks me the most (working in Germany) is that I have to take a 30 minute break after 6h of work and another 15 minute break after 9h and can't work more than 10h without someone signing off on it. I can't even opt out of this.

This seems totally broken, especially since you are not technically supposed to take other breaks without signing out of work. As someone using the Pomodoro Technique I just don't fit into the system. I obviously don't consider those breaks as work-breaks but rather as stuff that makes me more efficient overall and thus benefits my employer greatly.

It blows my mind that there's even work time regulations in pure "knowledge worker" fields. I tend to trust people to be interested in optimizing their workflows however they see fit.

Note: 40h is the standard work week here, we get 30 days of paid vacation (which is handled very differently in the US).

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#223

Post by eru »

evanpw wrote: post #194

I don't think I see a single negative comment here about long vacations, so allow me to play devil's advocate. (These questions don't necessarily reflect my own opinions.) 1. If this is such a free lunch (employees are both happier and more productive overall), then why isn't lots of vacation offered everywhere (in the US)? Can it really be the case that the vast majority of US companies are too short-sighted to make…

Those are good questions. I suspect the answer to two has to do with signalling.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#224

Post by eru »

legohead wrote: post #164

So here's a slightly different view from someone I know -- they are slotted X number of vacation days, but actually need more. He is divorced, and his kid is across the US, so he ends up using all his vacation to see his kid. Now he is left with nothing to take a real vacation with his current spouse, and they both really want to.

He should perhaps look for a better job?

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#225

Post by CalRobert »

CalRobert wrote: post #218
smackfu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Outside tech (which is dripping with privilege) it's common to have 0-2 weeks of vacation in the US. I have to disagree. Maybe outside of white-collar work. But "tech" is not all of white-collar. Most people who work in offices for big companies get good vacation time.

I disagree as well. Of course, "good" is subjective but this doesn't look great: (from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm ) Table 5. Average paid holidays and days of vacation and sick leave for full-time employees in small private establishments, 1996 Professional, All technical, Clerical Blue-collar Leave category full-time and and sales and service employees related employees(2) employees(3) employees(1)…

Sorry, I didn't catch that this data is for small establishments and you specifically said big. I can't immediately find this data from the BIS so disregard it if you like.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#227

Post by ameister14 »

evanpw wrote: post #194

I don't think I see a single negative comment here about long vacations, so allow me to play devil's advocate. (These questions don't necessarily reflect my own opinions.) 1. If this is such a free lunch (employees are both happier and more productive overall), then why isn't lots of vacation offered everywhere (in the US)? Can it really be the case that the vast majority of US companies are too short-sighted to make…

1. Simply, yes. Read up on Deming. US companies are not a bastion of efficiency and never have been. They innovate when there is massive competition, that's it.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#228

Post by smackfu »

CalRobert wrote: post #218
smackfu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Outside tech (which is dripping with privilege) it's common to have 0-2 weeks of vacation in the US. I have to disagree. Maybe outside of white-collar work. But "tech" is not all of white-collar. Most people who work in offices for big companies get good vacation time.

I disagree as well. Of course, "good" is subjective but this doesn't look great: (from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm ) Table 5. Average paid holidays and days of vacation and sick leave for full-time employees in small private establishments, 1996 Professional, All technical, Clerical Blue-collar Leave category full-time and and sales and service employees related employees(2) employees(3) employees(1)…

For professional, technical, and related employees, it looks like starting at two weeks and moving up to three or four after some time is the most common, which agrees with my experience.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#229

Post by baddox »

Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

> unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical.

I get your point, but that's clearly hyperbole. If you're given zero days off, and you take a day off, you get fired (or at least disciplined).

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#230

Post by baddox »

johnward wrote: post #120
izacus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, having 20-25 (almost mandatory) days of per year is implemented by law here in most countries of EU. How is that a "wierd" policy? (By "almost mandatory" I mean that at least here, you must use up your vacation days until end of next year.)

In the US that's weird because the mandatory days off per year are 0. A good amount for most people in the US is 10 days per year (or two weeks). I get 4 weeks which is pretty great but many of the people I work with end up not taking all of those days or taking days and also working on them due to culture. It's ridiculous.

> In the US that's weird because the mandatory days off per year are 0.

Only if you assume that a nation-wide law is the only condition under which non-zero vacation days will emerge.

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