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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#71

Post by delluminatus »

GFischer wrote: post #58
delluminatus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious to read about what it means to "de-stress" from work but I think you forgot the [1] citation. Maybe this is not common, but if I worked at a company with "unlimited vacation", I would definitely take extended vacations occasionally. I think as long as you timed them appropriately and gave advance notice, you could easily take a week or more off.

Well, here in Uruguay, you have to take 10 days minimum, at least twice a year. Plus you get close to a week off a few times a year (Easter and Carnival). So a week is nothing special here :) It has a silver lining: it forces the company to plan for backups and make processes more explicit.

Color me envious. I currently get 10 paid vacation days total per year.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#72

Post by delluminatus »

hedwall wrote: post #52
byoung2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of these "unlimited" places have a "as long as your work gets done" policy, meaning you can take tons of short days off or afternoons off, but almost no extended holidays (e.g. travel abroad, out of state, etc). My friend works at a company with unlimited vacation and they pay you $1000 for every full week you take off.

Your normal pay + $1000 or just $1000 ? In Sweden you actually get a ~12% higher pay during your vacation.

Do you know why? Is it just to encourage people to take more vacation time?

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#73

Post by Arjuna »

Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

Thanks for the link to that study.

In "europe" a two week vacation (10 work days) is common/standard. As opposed to American's "long weekends."

To that point, if you've ever wondered (as I have) about the differences in philosophy on the topic of vacation between America and Europe, you may enjoy this paper [1]. It attempts to examine those differences. It's entitled "Europeans Work To Live and Americans Live To Work (Who is Happy to Work More: Americans or Europeans?)."

Interesting paragraph: "This is the first study to test empirically whether working more makes Americans happier than Europeans. This study suggests that as the number of work hours increases, Americans become happier about life than Europeans. The purpose of this study was to document this relationship. More research is needed to find out why working more makes Americans happier than Europeans. I just note here one possible explanation: Americans may work more because they believe more than Europeans do that hard work brings success."

I'm American, and I love taking time away to recharge. I'm fortunate enough to be able to completely break away and unplug. I don't work while I'm on vacation, and I don't check email either. Again, I'm quite fortunate, as I know a lot of people simply can't do that for various reasons. I do wish our culture placed more emphasis on the importance of down-time. It just makes so much intuitive sense to me, and my personal productivity seems to corroborate the intuitive feeling that I have about the topic.

[1] http://people.hmdc.harvard.edu/~akozaryn/myweb/docs/final_wo...

- - -

Edit: Here is another interesting article on the topic. "Reluctant Vacationers: Why Americans Work More, Relax Less, than Europeans"

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/reluctant-vacatio...

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#74

Post by CalRobert »

oakesm9 wrote: post #23
javery wrote: post #5

We have an unlimited vacation policy at Adzerk and I try to lead by example by taking at least 2-3 weeks off a year (especially in the summer). We also try to encourage everyone to take at least one solid week off a year and it seems to work pretty well. I think that's the real issue with unlimited policy - if the leaders don't take vacation no one else thinks they can.

Is 2-3 weeks off a normal amount of time in the US? I get 28 days off per year in the UK, which is around the standard amount.

Outside tech (which is dripping with privilege) it's common to have 0-2 weeks of vacation in the US. There is no legal minimum, and I've had jobs offering 0, 1, and 2 weeks of vacation. In some cases you can take time off and simply not be paid for it.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#75

Post by dalke »

If anyone wants to read more about unlimited vacation policies, here are some of the previous HN threads on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5125973 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4874743 , and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7613526 . The last contains comments about the Jacob Kaplan-Moss essay that was mentioned in this thread's link.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#76

Post by ozh »

izacus wrote: post #20
butwhy wrote: post #12

Why do companies even try out these weird policies? They've gone from having unlimited days (then admitted it was a mistake for 2 whole years) and are now blindly trying out another unusual strategy. I don't see why they don't just offer a standard solution which seems to work for most companies, instead of trying to be extremely controlling of people.

Uh, having 20-25 (almost mandatory) days of per year is implemented by law here in most countries of EU. How is that a "wierd" policy? (By "almost mandatory" I mean that at least here, you must use up your vacation days until end of next year.)

Laws in France state that employers have to make sure every employee takes at least 2 consecutive weeks (ie 10 work days) between June & September. So, yes, mandatory.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#77

Post by JoeAltmaier »

delluminatus wrote: post #68
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, so in Silicon Valley a week is an 'extended vacation'! I used to think that meant a month or more. How fast the world is changing.

It is compared to a "long weekend" as described in the parent comment. Although it would be nice, taking a month off every year would be grail-status vacation time for a US employee I think. Also, I don't work in Silicon Valley.

Huh. My vacation started at a month when I joined. But I usually take it a week at a time. And I work in the US, for a Silicon Valley company.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#78

Post by saryant »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55
delluminatus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious to read about what it means to "de-stress" from work but I think you forgot the [1] citation. Maybe this is not common, but if I worked at a company with "unlimited vacation", I would definitely take extended vacations occasionally. I think as long as you timed them appropriately and gave advance notice, you could easily take a week or more off.

Wow, so in Silicon Valley a week is an 'extended vacation'! I used to think that meant a month or more. How fast the world is changing.

I work for a Boulder tech startup with an unlimited vacation policy.

Last year I took a month in Japan and South Korea, I just returned from two weeks in Tokyo, Taipei and Hong Kong. I also spent two weeks in Europe earlier this year, plus some odd long weekends and a planned week away around Christmas. I think my total for 2014 comes to around six weeks.

We also have a policy of working one month a year remotely from anywhere and the company pays part of the expense. I'm heading to Hanoi next year to take advantage of that. Our CEO/co-founder took his family to Australia for a month.

An exception? Probably. But it works for us.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#79

Post by unreal37 »

chton wrote: post #50

"We tried something that didn't fit our culture, and it didn't work." Taking less vacation time is not necessarily a bad thing. For myself, not having to meet a minimum quota means I enjoy the vacations I do take more, since I take them when I need and want instead of mandatory ones. It means, as long as I'm feeling good, I can keep the momentum up. The bigger problems is that employees didn't respect others' vacatio…

It sounds like having an open vacation policy is what leads to not respecting those days off in others. Also, what the leaders do, the staff generally do.

It sounds like a healthy place to work to me. I'd love to work there.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#80

Post by organsnyder »

chton wrote: post #50

"We tried something that didn't fit our culture, and it didn't work." Taking less vacation time is not necessarily a bad thing. For myself, not having to meet a minimum quota means I enjoy the vacations I do take more, since I take them when I need and want instead of mandatory ones. It means, as long as I'm feeling good, I can keep the momentum up. The bigger problems is that employees didn't respect others' vacatio…

What you're proposing is unlikely to work in many environments. Even in the best of environments, where trust and respect course through every coworker interaction, people will still be looking to their coworkers (especially their superiors) to get a feel for how much vacation time is acceptable. In fact, companies with exceptionally strong cultures may be worse, as people really won't want to be a burden on their coworkers by taking more vacation days than average.

This is especially true for anyone with any sort of leadership role—whether it's an official senior position, a mentor, or just someone who is known for being a model employee. Your own behavior serves as a model for others, and no company policy is going to tell people any different.

I work for a small nonprofit organization with an extremely dedicated president. She's been very gracious with the freedom she allows her employees (though the official policies could be better), but I'm always wondering if she thinks that I'm actually working hard enough—not because of anything she's said, but because she puts in a ton of hours. I know many of my coworkers feel the same pressure.

If you're forced to take vacation time even when you don't need it, then try to find other pursuits—personal projects, reading, volunteering—that are still "work", but of the unpaid variety. Take the time to catch up with friends and family (especially if you have kids). Vacation doesn't just have to be about traveling and/or resting; it can also be an opportunity to catch up on other priorities.

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